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MISSING: Mavsluvr (his last picture)
(01-18-2022, 12:38 AM)mavsluvr Wrote: lol, I don't know what that means, but it sounds profound

It has occurred to me more than once that this might be a candidate for the mods' most hated thread ever. I'm surprised it has lasted this long, even in the cave. Kudos to all you guys for letting people have their say.

After all this time, you really don't know us very well. We hardly delete anything.

Do you really believe all that stuff you just said in reply to @"meistermatze"?
Not very astute ^^^^
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(01-18-2022, 12:42 AM)fifteenth Wrote: After all this time, you really don't know us very well. We hardly delete anything.

Do you really believe all that stuff you just said in reply to @"meistermatze"?

I'm lost. 

I think DLord deleted a bunch of my posts on a previous version of the board, earning my everlasting disdain. I'm sure he lost a lot of sleep over it, lol. 

I don't want to keep beating the dead "Kamm v mavsluvr" horse. As he himself has mentioned several times, it's being going on for the longest. It doesn't even matter any more who's right or wrong, I'm just tired of the whole business. You don't have to agree with me, I still love you. 

Heart
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(01-18-2022, 12:55 AM)mavsluvr Wrote: I'm lost. 

I think DLord deleted a bunch of my posts on a previous version of the board, earning my everlasting disdain. I'm sure he lost a lot of sleep over it, lol. 

I don't want to keep beating the dead "Kamm v mavsluvr" horse. As he himself has mentioned several times, it's being going on for the longest. It doesn't even matter any more who's right or wrong, I'm just tired of the whole business. You don't have to agree with me, I still love you. 

Heart

DLord has never been a mod here. That was at Fish's site.
Not very astute ^^^^
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Hakeem,

I greatly appreciate your effort to save my thread (or at least the intended part of it) and I am also glad that you are being a voice of reason here. Sincerely, thank you!

You are also right in the sense that I oversimplified while insinuating this. Kamm can and has taken a different opinion, the problem lies in his perception, in that he took things way too personal. This happens and I not fault him or anyone for this. But this is where the misunderstanding-part ended and where the real problems started.

For him and the mods, it apparently crosses a line, when somebody feels “disrespected” and not “treated properly” on an internet message board. This is enough grounds for them to let something like this happen (mavsluvr leaving, people like me and others getting upset, setting a weird precedent while acting as if it is not a big deal, …).

For me (and I can’t speak for them but that’s how I understand mavsluvr and burkemende for example) on the other side of the fence, it kind of crosses a line, when no actual rule is broken but people’s feelings are more important than other’s freedom of expression.

From my perspective, treating others on an internet message board like actual adults in real life is the ultimate form of respect. And by that I mean, expecting them to not get hurt by some irony or sarcasm, not being overly sensitive, not expecting them being in need to be protected from words.

And yes, both sides have the right to stop the interaction but to say which side is correct and acceptable is totally arbitrary and not in any way self-explainatory.

@fifteen: Did you mean me, when you alluded to some posters not being around “to talk basketball” but “piling on kamm”? If so, the only answer I have to give is, that this matter is more important for the culture on this board than my semi-relevant basketball opinions (which I still occasionally get around to give but I admit, I should do it more often – at least I think I should, lol).

I don’t think it is unreasonable to argue this case without being regarded as a drama queen who comes here all of a sudden with the sole intention to stir things up or to further hurt kamm. Like I said, I feel this to be way bigger than every single individual on here – but you made your point, you disagree and don’t really see my point or why I keep writing.
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(01-18-2022, 01:06 AM)fifteenth Wrote: DLord has never been a mod here. That was at Fish's site.

Whatever.  Rolleyes


I don't why I'm still talking about this, but this is all it boils down to for me. 

1. This guy has been attacking me for a LONG time. Constantly overreacting to posts that most people would barely notice, and using his trumped-up indignation to justify a never-ending stream of extremely rude insults and make a case that I am a guy who persistently thumbs my nose at the rules (a person who maybe should be kicked out, no?).

2.  I have tried to implement a policy of avoidance with respect to him, as he requested, and have tried to be polite when we did interact. It hasn't worked. It is getting worse, not better. 

3.  There is nothing about the "resolution" of this situation that suggests that anything is going to change. From what I can gather, the only thing that is different (apart from my having to endure a torrent of scolding) is that Kamm is not going to use the word "leave" anymore. Now, he'll have to say "depart" or "GTFO" or whatever. 

4. This is never going to get better, and I have run out of patience for it. That's the size of it. I didn't want to be that blunt, but trying to put things nicely is not getting anywhere.


No one has to agree with me. For those who are still complaining on Kamm's behalf, I'm leaving. You won. I don't know what the continued kvetching is supposed to accomplish. It's over.
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At least we are (for now) allowed to keep talking about the subject, albeit in the troll cave, of course. I reckon it is still in the middle of the night for you guys so I will patiently wait and see if there is another response coming or if indeed the decision is to brush over this as quickly as possible.
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(01-18-2022, 03:26 AM)meistermatze Wrote: This is enough grounds for them to let something like this happen (mavsluvr leaving, people like me and others getting upset, setting a weird precedent while acting as if it is not a big deal, …).


"Let something like this happen"....what in the world are you talking about? 

Literally, 100% of this community has chimed in to tell ML how important he is, and to ask him not to leave. I'm honestly not sure what more anyone could've done. 

He is not banned. He is not in any danger of being banned. Never has been for a second. He has not been censored. He has never been in danger of being censored. One person got mad at him (which seems to have been the goal, all along). It wasn't the board getting upset - it was one other poster. 

There is no establishment here. Some of us agreed to do a FRACTION of a percent more work than everyone else to keep this place nice, but we're not "in charge" of anything. Nobody is. It's a basketball community on the internet, not something to worry about.  If Kamm and ML can't get along, that's on them, from my perspective.

People treat Kammrath like he owns the place, but he doesn't. If it seems like he does, that's just because he does 99% of the work around here. That's not a defense of him, it's simply a fact. However, he doesn't have the power to ban someone just because he doesn't like them (not that I believe he would). That's all done by vote, and so far only one person has ever passed that vote (or even been discussed) and gotten banned - a person who was literally cussing another poster out every time they logged in!  And it took like a month of that for us all to agree to pull the trigger. (I STILL MISS THAT GUY - he was one of my favorites before he went insane). 

All of this has been explained 3-4 times, at this point. The fact that there are people acting like ML was/is/will be made to leave is bizarre to me, as if furthering this sad internet conflict is somehow providing entertainment. We (and again, "we" is the same us "you" or "us" here) have ALL asked him to stay. Pretty much everyone who posts here has chimed in with sincerity. What do you want anyone to do? We can't MAKE him stay. 

Nobody is going to ban anyone from here, probably ever, unless there are extreme circumstances involved, the likes of which this situation really hasn't come close to displaying. Nobody is going to lock this thread or delete any of its posts (unless it gets ridiculous or over the top with profanity and hate). There is no looming danger of that - it's not being discussed or considered by anyone (why on Earth would it be??). 

People here are free to think and say whatever they wish (within reason), or I wouldn't be a mod, poster or even a reader here. I suspect that most of us feel that way. Fifteenth (rightly) moved this thread here because it became obvious that it was not about basketball. That is the sum of "modding" that has been done to anyone over this kerfuffle, and it was done to a thread that ML didn't even start!

EDIT: And btw, for those who haven't noticed, the guy saying he's leaving (ML) is still here posting (HOPEFULLY FOR GOOD!) and the guy who supposedly made him leave has left (maybe for good, though I certainly hope not). This entire thing is so sad, imo, and I don't mean like the end of Bambi.
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(01-18-2022, 06:59 AM)meistermatze Wrote: if there is another response coming or if indeed the decision is to brush over this as quickly as possible.


You don't need to wait for a decision, meistermatze. 

When the conflict came to a head, I essentially said, "hey you guys, for the sake of the forum, resist the need to have the last word here (in a basketball thread) and take it to PM instead. Seems like fairly gentle modding to be honest. 

Nothing has or will need to be "done" to either poster going forward. We already "did" it! We asked them to work it out on PM!

This thread was moved here because it was no longer about basketball, it was about a spat between two posters. And putting your original post back on the main board was a great idea, and I was happy to do it. So cool that you got to go to a game and meet Followill, by the way!!

Pal, not sure if you've noticed, but the board is facilitated these days by your old cave pals. We've never done anything here that's heavy handed, and I'd say that if our names weren't made a different color, you wouldn't even notice that the place has mods! Folks are mostly respectful and the board kinda takes care of itself.
Not very astute ^^^^
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(01-18-2022, 10:27 AM)fifteenth Wrote: that if our names weren't made a different color, you wouldn't even notice that the place has mods! Folks are mostly respectful and the board kinda takes care of itself.


So much this!
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BTW, @"meistermatze", it's really cool that you're concerned about the culture of the place!! We are too! I actually really like the culture around here. Folks are friendly, funny, light hearted but at the some time able to engage in some really great basketball talk. And we certainly love it when you're here contributing to all that!
Not very astute ^^^^
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Not to keep this unpleasant matter alive, but one thing keeps bothering me. 

Thinking about sad miscommunications in this case, reading the conversations between the mods (including Kamm) and the other posters on this matter has been like watching ships passing in the night. Everybody has been talking past each other. I offer a reflection on what seems to be happening and maybe a simple way to connect better in this case or the future. Not as a criticism of anyone, but as an observation that is meant in a positive way.

TL;DR:  The mods have devoted a lot of time and effort to addressing this matter. Good for them. In retrospect, the effort might have been better received if it had been directed a little more toward listening, and a little less toward trying to defend the indefensible. 

The long version:

Regardless of whatever else went on, Kamm’s abusive language was clearly way out of bounds. By using the words he did, he put himself in the wrong, no matter what. The through-line of the regular posters has been that they don’t feel comfortable with a mod being allowed to talk to posters like that. They’re way more worried about what Kamm said than what I or anyone else said, because he is an authority figure, and they see themselves as subject to being treated the same way. 

The more Kamm insisted he was right, and the more the mods defended him or brushed the matter off, the more and more the message appeared to be that the “authorities” were endorsing his behavior. This brought on more and more posts condemning that standard, possibly causing Kamm to feel piled on. 

The mods’ defense that they told both posters to GTFO with their nonsense didn’t address the concern. An analogy from the world of crime would be like if A kills his neighbor B’s dog, the cops brush off B’s complaint, and when the other neighbors want to know what’s up, the cops say, “Look, we told A and B to stop bothering everybody about this, and go work it out between themselves. What else were we supposed to do?” The neighbors want to know that A can’t keep killing people’s dogs, not that A and B have been advised not to publicly complain about each other. 

The more the mods dug in on treating this conflict as a “spat” between two posters, rather than as a case of abuse of a poster by a mod, the more they appeared committed to allowing Kamm to treat people like this, and to be sending a message that regular posters could like it or lump it, which left many people shaken and unsatisfied. I don’t know that that was really what they really intended, but it’s the message that came across. 

I think a more productive way to handle it might have been to just acknowledge early on that Kamm let his temper get the better of him on this occasion, and that his outburst didn’t reflect the board standards as to how anyone (including mods) should treat other people here. (They could have added whatever shots they wanted to at me or anyone else; the important thing is to have let the “common people” know that they did not court board-sanctioned abuse by coming here.) I realize hindsight is 20-20, and that everyone might do things differently looking back on it. It just seemed to me that this one important connection had still not been made.
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(01-19-2022, 08:47 AM)mavsluvr Wrote: Not to keep this unpleasant matter alive, but one thing keeps bothering me. 


If something is still bugging you, then thanks for letting us know!


(01-19-2022, 08:47 AM)mavsluvr Wrote: The mods have devoted a lot of time and effort to addressing this matter. Good for them. In retrospect, the effort might have been better received if it had been directed a little more toward listening, and a little less toward trying to defend the indefensible. 


Two folks talking past each other might be you and me. My bad for not being more clear. I'm here, trying to listen better. 

I shared with Kam where I thought he made mistakes (as Kam has alluded to). Kam and mods have in fact said where we thought Kam made a mistake. We haven't defended those mistakes, instead, we've just asked in this specific thread for folks to stop the over the top pile on. 

And just as I shared with Kam where I thought he made a mistake I've also shared with you about your part. I even sent you a friendly PM weeks before the blow up about your interactions with Kam. If you can't see that you had at least some part in the blow up, then I don't know how to help you on that front. I'm listening, and your reaction to this makes more sense if in fact you don't think you played some part in it. 

IF you want to be heard, I'm listening. But please pal, listen to me as well. 


(01-19-2022, 08:47 AM)mavsluvr Wrote: I think a more productive way to handle it might have been to just acknowledge early on that Kamm let his temper get the better of him on this occasion, and that his outburst didn’t reflect the board standards as to how anyone (including mods) should treat other people here


Well, this is a good point. Responding in anger towards each other on this forum is not in keeping with the culture that we attempt to maintain here. That's a fact.
Not very astute ^^^^
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(01-19-2022, 11:02 AM)fifteenth Wrote: Two folks talking past each other might be you and me. My bad for not being more clear. I'm here, trying to listen better. 

I shared with Kam where I thought he made mistakes (as Kam has alluded to). Kam and mods have in fact said where we thought Kam made a mistake. We haven't defended those mistakes, instead, we've just asked in this specific thread for folks to stop the over the top pile on. 

And just as I shared with Kam where I thought he made a mistake I've also shared with you about your part. I even sent you a friendly PM weeks before the blow up about your interactions with Kam. If you can't see that you had at least some part in the blow up, then I don't know how to help you on that front. I'm listening, and your reaction to this makes more sense if in fact you don't think you played some part in it. 

IF you want to be heard, I'm listening. But please pal, listen to me as well.
I have been listening carefully to everything you have said, buddy. That's why I'm still engaging, somewhat against my better judgment. 


As to my part, I believe I have said numerous times that I wish I had not responded to Kam's post. Your prior friendly message expressed concern about whether he was getting to me. I interpreted that as asking me (in the nicest of ways) not to keep responding to him. Upon receiving that, I gritted my teeth and complied, at least as far as I noticed who I was talking to. Upon Kamm's latest explosion, I decided to just take myself out of the firing line. I did not expect or intend to incite World War III. I thought that, if anything, you as a person would probably feel a little relieved to have one less problem to manage. If I had thought it was any big deal to you, or that I might be blindsiding you, I would at least have given you a private heads up. 

All that is beside the point now. My comments in my last post don't have anything to do with apportioning blame between Kamm and me. They were addressed to what I hope won't be another sad miscommunication in a sad affair. In this case, the seeming disconnect between the "regular posters" ("RPs") and the mods. 

It seems to me that the RPs keep saying that, regardless of anyone else's actions or inactions,  they found Kamm's unarguably offensive language especially disturbing, and that they feared that letting it go heralded an undesirable change in the board culture. Possibly involving having to walk on eggshells around certain posters at the peril of subjecting themselves to abuse, and/or of instituting an atmosphere where they might no longer feel free to express themselves in the humorous and casual ways they were accustomed to, or enjoy others' expressing themselves similarly. This is not a complaint on my own behalf, it's something I perceived from trying to distill the essence of their unanswered concerns.

It seemed to me that the whole "RP-v-mods" thing that developed was due partly to Kamm's and the other mods trying to address this as an issue about who was right or wrong respecting the particulars of a "spat," and not acknowledging the bigger question. For example, Kamm dodging responsibility by insisting on strained interpretations of his clearly inappropriate language in a couple of posts. And the mods variously taking positions that they were satisfied with letting the matter go based on those legalistic interpretations, or that I had it coming for irritating him, or that they weren't going to dirty their hands with addressing it, etc. It's not that I think their determinations were necessarily objectively right or wrong, more that they seemed to miss the larger point. 

It seemed like the RPs were worried about whether they were now going to have to avoid disagreeing with certain people, or were going to have to keep track of which posters were willing to be responded to in certain ways and which weren't, or whether the board was turning into a "heavier" place where they always had to watch their p's and q's, or whether people were even going to stay here in the new regime. They weren't asking for an adjudication of who was right or wrong. 

It seemed to me that the refusal to respond to the bigger question was a de facto statement that, since Kamm did so much work here, even if he indulged his temper and ran people off, the mods were really pretty okay with it. I eventually attempted to intercede (on the mods' behalf, as I saw it) by saying that I understood the RPs' concern and acknowledged that it might be well-founded, but suggested that even if that were the case, it wasn't likely to affect many people individually, no one should assume that things were going to get worse, and that people should feel encouraged to stay here. You took exception to that, so whatever, I thought I was helping, and I'm not asking for anything now. 

This is just a reflection on why I perceive that people seemed unsatisfied and kept "piling on," even to the point that Kamm ultimately felt like the injured party, despite the fact that I already had conceded the entire field to him. Anyway, I just thought listening to the deeper concerns and offering a simple statement that the board was not endorsing the language used, but rather that everyone, including the mods, was expected to do better, might have gone a long way toward nipping this in the bud. (You could also have announced that I was mostly to blame, and that you would have fired me if I hadn't quit, or whatever else helped anyone get through the night, if you wanted. But I don't think that was relevant to this concern. The RPs were worried about "official" behavior.) It's water under the bridge as far as this particular conflict, but maybe it's a seed to plant in the case of the next issue. 

I'm not expecting you to agree with me. I just felt like there is still a continuing disconnect and didn't want to leave it dangling.
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ML, we "RP's" (as you call us) do NOT necessarily agree with you and your pov on this. Maybe some do - but others do not. Some number of us (perhaps the silent majority, as they say?) feel that what you continue to kvetch about is more your fault than his.

Each of your posts is even more self-serving, and more accusatory of others, than the last, even though no one did you wrong. You are trying to fan the flames of a war that only exists in your mind. 

Kamm said X. We can read his words.
You misunderstood his meaning, saying it meant Y, and you got bent about Y. Tried to make it a thing. It never was.
He clarified, making clear to you he meant X, and apologized for saying it in a way that you misunderstood.
When we go read his words, they say what he says (X), although it can be seen where someone who wasn't reading carefully (or who wanted to create drama) could say they meant Y.
You continue to carp on Y, even though he has repeatedly made clear he didn't say Y or mean it.
You try to say the whole world thinks Y exists, but they don't.
There was no Y, except in your mind, and in the minds of those you have persuaded that X secretly meant Y.
You continue to harp on getting rid of Y, except the only place it ever existed was in your mind.

In addition, you keep ignoring the truth that in the leadup to this conflict, YOU actively worked to agitate Kamm in your responses to him, knew you were doing it, admitted you did it - and you are STILL trying to continue this war against him by pretending it was all his wrong-doing. It clearly was not. 'I tried to make him mad, I did it, so we should condemn HIM' is what you're doing, then, still, always, and some of us would certainly never endorse that at all. 

Kamm even apologized for his part in what happened. You did not. From that point, it's ON YOU, not him. Kamm is a person who took responsibility, and deserves respect.

You want to play the martyr over this drama that you alone are perpetuating. But you have not been mistreated- just the opposite, in fact. While I have appreciated the game recaps, I don't support what you are saying at all, feel it is destructively self-focused, and find it hard to care whether you post here again as you continue to soil your brand.
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It really isn´t as black and white as @"mavsluvr", @"Kammrath" or @"F Gump" think. Going through the last few posts it is pretty amazing to realize that people only see what they want to see. Trying to push their own version of the truth.

-No one tried to ban Mavslur and that was clarified more than once now.
-Kamm only apologized for one specific part of the interaction (the "leave comment) and if we are being honest his posts included more personal attacks (for example using the Followill running gag to attack Mavsluvr´s credibility).

If this is about the moral high ground neither side is doing themself any favors right now.

I am not sure why @"Kammrath" hasn´t posted in the last days. Hopefully he will be back soon. Absolutely think that some time off the board can help to get a better perspective. Took the same road a few month ago.
 
Same for @"mavsluvr". It really seems like you do care about the community. Otherwise you wouldn´t continue to engage with us. I cannot force you to stay if the recent clash has spoiled the experience for you. But I do think that you are blowing things out of proportion right now. I am positive that we could have the same witty debates we used to have in the past. There is no hidden mod agenda. It could have been handled better but no one is trying to cancel you.
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Only a lurker here (but at least a regular one - seriously, well over a year at this point), but maybe I can offer some thoughts in exchange for the enjoyment this place has brought me.

First a couple observations - @"mavsluvr" is perhaps my favorite poster to read here, but it’s been a trend of rising temperature in his joking responses over the last 6 months or so. When he mentioned that his enjoyment has dropped, my first thought was “makes sense.” Life’s too short to post on a message board unless it brings you joy (or a paycheck), so please exit stage left when that’s not the case, regardless of who will miss you. Go be happy instead!

That said, and while I think he’s laying it on a little thick at this point, there are a few points above that feel worth emphasizing. Call it a red flag and two orange.
  1. In the original thread @"Kammrath"’s responded with a few insulting words directed at @"mavsluvr"’s “interactions” and doubled down here that he was only talking about “interactions”. That is a very flimsy veil to hide behind. I suspect if most posters had said the same there’d have been the usual in-thread, directed warning against personal attacks. That defense here probably could’ve used a public dismissal.
  2. Calling humor-intended reductio ad absurdum (and at points, sarcastic) responses “trolling” seems like an overreach that stifles conversation. Sure, they might’ve rankled to be on the other end of them but, in my humble opinion, sometimes humor is the last healthy resort to repeated arguments that already border on the absurd without much exaggeration. Maybe a public dismissal of that “trolling” definition would’ve been helpful for confidence here as well.
  3. When someone posts as prolifically as @"Kammrath" had, asking others to simply not respond to you feels a little off (especially when that person is also a mod). I understand letting individuals request others don’t engage them, but it might be helpful to discourage anyone from taking that avenue and acknowledging that there will be no enforcement of who is allowed to address who no matter what is requested. Seems silly if one poster can wall off their posts from folks of their choosing.
So take those thoughts from a self-proclaimed “objective” observer for what it’s worth. Back to the shadows and all the best (especially to the two primary folks who have been critical cogs in something I enjoy).
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(01-19-2022, 08:31 PM)Not an evil robot Wrote: Back to the shadows and all the best (especially to the two primary folks who have been critical cogs in something I enjoy).


I sure hope you do decide to post more!
14x All-Star, 12x all-NBA, 1x MVP, 1x Finals MVP, 1 NBA Championship: Dirk Nowitzki, the man, the myth, the legend.
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@"Not an evil robot" the main takeaway from that for me is that we need to read more from you!
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We did not plan to post at the same time btw. So its kismet. You have to post more!
14x All-Star, 12x all-NBA, 1x MVP, 1x Finals MVP, 1 NBA Championship: Dirk Nowitzki, the man, the myth, the legend.
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Yes, we need an evil robot for sure!
Not very astute ^^^^
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