MAVS 103, NUGGETS 89

[hakeemfaan]

For most of last year I was beating the drum that the roster wasn't as bad as people were making it out to be....then this year started and I began to believe maybe they were right and I was wrong. Then the 10 game stretch without Luka came and I was back to believing the roster was somewhat decent (middle of the road in the NBA and not toward the bottom). 

I really have no idea what the deal is, but Luka's fit with his NBA rosters so far have been "meh" to me. What is weird is that he seemlessly fits with rosters in international player and elevates their play immensely. I just haven't seen that consistently in the NBA. The NBA is a VERY different game and the mentality is often different as well with the players, coaches, etc. I am just not sure.

One random theory from me this morning (which may not have any merit) is that maybe Luka struggles to mesh with MORE talent. Maybe he is best when he has subpar talent around him. That wouldn't explain him meshing with Dragic in international play, but otherwise it could ring true. Anyways, just spitballing because I am quite dumbfounded by it all.

The guy has had a stellar career so far and he is still so young. So I would disagree with the above.  

The discussion is about how to take those next steps to greatness which probably are the most difficult ones to take. Some of these support players will change. So even if Luka starts believing more in some of them they won’t be here in the long run. What has to happen is a system built around Luka and one other primary ball handler ( for now it can be Brunson) and then some sort of a designed scheme to have more touches and ball movement. That way even if the other parts around Luka change, he and anyone new coming in know what it takes. Plus this will lend clarity also on who to target or jettison.  KP, even if he is very good, doesn’t really mesh with a two primary ball handlers scheme. Nico needs to actively look for opportunities to trade KP.  Forget KAT. If we can get D’Angelo Russell, I would do that trade in a heartbeat.  He would fit in much better next to Luka. 

If you see the GS model, while they have made some mistakes deviating from their own model ( they would have been much better with D’Angelo and Ball), for the most part they have played to Steph’s strengths.

[Kammrath]

The guy has had a stellar career so far and he is still so young. So I would disagree with the above.  

The discussion is about how to take those next steps to greatness which probably are the most difficult ones to take.

Luka has had a GREAT NBA career from a statistical standpoint (minus shooting). But from a team success standpoint it has not been nearly to the level of his international success (which is what I am comparing it to). 

I do 100% agree with you that the last steps of climbing the NBA ladder are the hardest and usually take time.

[mavsluvr]

Your reading comprehension of anything I post is completely lacking.

Well, I'm pretty much known for not understanding anything I read, so I guess that must be it. 


please leave the board.

Really? LOL. If your role now is to terminate whatever posters you don't like, then it's not going to be worth posting here anyway, so fire away. 

[Jmaciscool]

One of two things is happening here:

1) Your reading comprehension of anything I post is completely lacking.

2) You are trolling me.

If it is the first, please ask me questions or don't comment on my posts.

If it is the second, please stop it or leave the board. Trolling is not welcome here. Just because you pretend to be Followill does not make you exempt from the rules all the rest of us follow.

I don't think it's either of these tbh, I think it was just poking fun as far as I can tell, certainly nothing that seems to be outside the rules.

I certainly hope Mavsluvr (or you) never leave the board as I really enjoy y'all's posts even if I don't agree with all of them.

[mavsluvr]

More iztok comments --

https://twitter.com/iztok_franko/status/...41668?s=20

[mavsluvr]

https://twitter.com/All_Things_Mavs/stat...85025?s=20

[burekemde]

Luka has had a GREAT NBA career from a statistical standpoint (minus shooting). But from a team success standpoint it has not been nearly to the level of his international success (which is what I am comparing it to). 

I do 100% agree with you that the last steps of climbing the NBA ladder are the hardest and usually take time.

Wow. The guy has transformed Dallas from a losing tanking franchise to a playoff team every season. I would say that is a great team success! Jordan did a similar accomplishment from the first roster he joined for many years in the beginning. Obviously to winning a championship takes the next step, and this doesn't only involve a special all time great player but also the entire franchise and adding multiple right pieces around that player. So much of what happens now with Mavs and will happen from now team wise in terms of success, this is on the coaches and the owner and teammates probably much more than on Luka.

Thus, Luka has had comparable success in the NBA teamwise as he did in Europe. To win with Real is probably the same as getting Mavs to be exciting to watch and into playoffs.

He has had just as much great NBA career statistically as from a team point of view. In fact, it can only be compared to very few players in history. Yet, this is not enough for some. Even this season - still on way to playoffs and making Mavs competitive.

[michaeltex]

Luka has had a GREAT NBA career from a statistical standpoint (minus shooting). But from a team success standpoint it has not been nearly to the level of his international success (which is what I am comparing it to). 

I do 100% agree with you that the last steps of climbing the NBA ladder are the hardest and usually take time.

Luka is a joy to watch, regardless of the teams record. Using international results to compare to NBA results is sort of apples vs. oranges. A lot of high performing foreign players don't transition well to the NBA game, but I don't think anyone feels Luka isn't good enough to be successful here. 

I think the issue (and a source for frustration) is that DAL acquired Luka as the first building block rather than the final piece of a functional team. DAL had been a revolving door for the previous several seasons. But Luka's rookie season showed that the improvement curve was steeper than most anticipated (take that SAC and PHX) and the MBT has been unable to with team building activities to complement his talent. (Too good, too fast) They took a big swing with KP, but that has taken 2+ years to get to where we are today with significant discussion STILL around his fit with Luka and a lot of speculation that KP is tradeable, so grades range from C+ to Incomplete.  

This is going to be more like the Jordan Bulls where they had to find talent to support and grow with MJ and took several years to get there. This is not the David Robinson Spurs acquiring Duncan because of an injury-related tanking but having a high performing team already in place. A lot of the Mavs are at their top potential. Now the challenge is to find players that can help raise the team to Luka's level and get everybody on the same path to success.

[burekemde]

Luka is a joy to watch, regardless of the teams record. Using international results to compare to NBA results is sort of apples vs. oranges. A lot of high performing foreign players don't transition well to the NBA game, but I don't think anyone feels Luka isn't good enough to be successful here. 

I think the issue (and a source for frustration) is that DAL acquired Luka as the first building block rather than the final piece of a functional team. DAL had been a revolving door for the previous several seasons. But Luka's rookie season showed that the improvement curve was steeper than most anticipated (take that SAC and PHX) and the MBT has been unable to with team building activities to complement his talent. (Too good, too fast) They took a big swing with KP, but that has taken 2+ years to get to where we are today with significant discussion STILL around his fit with Luka and a lot of speculation that KP is tradeable, so grades range from C+ to Incomplete.  

This is going to be more like the Jordan Bulls where they had to find talent to support and grow with MJ and took several years to get there. This is not the David Robinson Spurs acquiring Duncan because of an injury-related tanking but having a high performing team already in place. A lot of the Mavs are at their top potential. Now the challenge is to find players that can help raise the team to Luka's level and get everybody on the same path to success.

Great post MT, i totally agree. Now it's up to the franchise to complement Lukas greatness and let it turn into rings.

I believe in building that squad to next level will require additional consistent pieces in addition to Luka that delivers every given game. The way I see it, Brunson is extremely consistent. KP to some extent. Besides that, you really cant trust anyone to make a shot on every given game. Yes, you can have some players produce some games and then fade away in others. But every given game: That is Luka, then Brunson, then on the border you have KP but with the last mentioned it depends on whether he is healthy and the scheme etc.

I would really build around Luka and Brunson and add consistent great players with skills that match Luka and Brunson. Sabonis would be a great one that fits. The next move that involves KP might dictate the outcome of whether we do or not win championship in the next 5 years.

[ItsGoTime]

Luka needs better teammates to propel him vertically. Can’t have 3 bench players starting and expect him to overcome.

[sterlingmallory]

IMO, the formula to build around Luka is fairly simple, the blueprint is the Harden/CP3 Rockets. Maybe not 100% exact 1 to 1 copy, but that really should be the general idea. At least two elite playmakers, a tough, mobile, and athletic lob threat big man, and a bunch of switchable 3&D wing types.

Luka is Harden in this example obviously. Can Brunson be the CP3? Of course it's unfair to compare another point guard to Chris Paul who is an all time great, but I think Brunson could fit the general archetype. Smart, heady point guard that is good at running the offense, probing the lane, elite at finishing at the rim and in midrange and is a solid 3 point shooter when needed. 

We have a decent collection of 3&D guys (in theory).

What we're missing from that blueprint is the Capela. The ideal big for Luka is tough, mobile, athletic and a major lob threat in the PnR. KP is not and cannot ever be tough, mobile, or athletic and apparently refuses to be a good screener and PnR lob threat so ultimately I think he'll have to be traded, though I'm sure it's more likely we're gonna keep trying with the square peg/round hole thing until his contract expires. I think the FO recognizes we need this type of player though which is why we picked up Chriss who can be your dollar store Capela.

[F Gump]

.... it's up to the franchise to complement Lukas greatness and let it turn into rings. 

I understand why you and many others think that the problem is never, and can never be, Luka himself. (The replies here make it clear that's the mindset of many, if not most.) But I think all of you who think that are way off base in thinking that.

Yes, other Mavs need to play (or be) better. In particular, THJ and Bullock need to at least replicate their norms (over their career) and stop sucking on making shots.

But Kamm is 100% right in noticing what's happening. While no one would deny Luka is a fun player to watch and very skilled, at the same time, he too has some very significant issues in his current game, and this team's ceiling is quite low when his play is at this level.

He shoots the most shots on the team, but he's not efficient in making shots. He handles the ball the most, but his FTs are very iffy. He's great in the open court, but his typical pace is a lifeless crawl. Then there's the issues on the defensive end.

None of this is new at all - it's the exact same questions he brought when he was drafted. Too slow? Mediocre shot? Too much one-man play? In prior years, those issues had been somewhat improved. This year, it's back to start.

Will he put in the work, or is he is satisfied playing "as is"? I want to assume he is driven to be the very best, rather than just play games for fun, but we won't know until it happens.

[KillerLeft]

He shoots the most shots on the team, but he's not efficient in making shots. He handles the ball the most, but his FTs are very iffy. He's great in the open court, but his typical pace is a lifeless crawl. Then there's the issues on the defensive end.

I agree with all of this, and I don't feel like I'm letting Luka off the hook for any of it in my head. 

But, I still think it's dumb to go away from what he does well offensively. Add nuance it, fine. Work to diversify it a bit, sure. Completely discard spread pick and roll as the basis for the system? I'm sorry, I just don't agree with that.

[KillerLeft]

Luka needs better teammates to propel him vertically. Can’t have 3 bench players starting and expect him to overcome.

I think you might be just a touch too hard on Porzingis, Bullock and Powell here.

[omahen]

I understand why you and many others think that the problem is never, and can never be, Luka himself. (The replies here make it clear that's the mindset of many, if not most.) But I think all of you who think that are way off base in thinking that.

If I speak for myself, I don't think Luka is perfect. Perhaps where my take is different is that I take him as he is, with his strength and weaknesses. Because he has proven that he can be top 5 player in the league, as he is. Slow start to the season doesn't change that.

I think Mavs have far bigger problems to solve before trying to solve Luka. Starting with actually building around him. Admit he is not the strongest defender, so surround him with such, as Atlanta did with Young. Admit he is not the fastest so use other players to push the ball. Mavs have done none of that. We were screaming for secondary creator, Mavs didn't add one. The jury remains if Brunson developed into one that can hold his own in the playoffs. Mavs have surrounded Luka with bad to mediocre defenders, which has been to an extent corrected by "benching" THJ. I am not convinced this team will be able to play good basketball on both sides of the floor in the playoffs. 

Luka has been improving every year and a slow start doesn't change that perspective for me. He has been always at his best when it mattered most so I think fans would actually owe their star player the decency to at least wait until then before starting to fire away. I think it is very sad that Mavs as a team need Luka to perform at peak level just to be able to take a playoff position. I think this tells way more about the team quality than about Luka. 

He shoots the most shots on the team, but he's not efficient in making shots

He is not efficient at the start of this season, he was very efficient in previous ones. But lets face it, basically whole team has plummeted in that category. Coach was one big change from last season, so I would say that changed schemes have a lot to do with that.  

He's great in the open court, but his typical pace is a lifeless crawl.

Luka with his "lifeless crawl" lead most efficient offense of the league, so I don't really know slower pace in itself can be considered as a problem. It is also interesting that pace in last 10 games without Luka was considerably slower than with him. On the other hand, Slovenia was playing fast with this same Luka in the Olympics with other players pushing the ball. Not everything needs to be on Luka, that is part of building around him. 

this team's ceiling is quite low when his play is at this level.

I would dare to say that this team's ceiling is quite low when he plays at top 5 player in the world level.

[TXBamanut]

Look the best look for this team, honestly, and I've said it before, is to make sure other players are involved early and not run the heliocentric stuff around Luka exclusively until the 4th or just down teh stretch...maybe at the end of quarters and games.

1)  That keeps Luka fresher.
2)  That keeps the defense away from being able to see it all game and adjust.
3)  That puts the strongest scoring punch at crunch time.  

***One thing that needs to adjust here is Luka's experiences with the refs.  They just flat aren't making obvious calls and are letting the defense get away with more against him than they would some middling role player in some cases.  Part of this is probably because he's sold it so hard when he first came in the league and they looked on film and are a little jaded now...part is probably because refs are just inconsistent and poorly evaluated and part is because they are done with him yelling all the time about the call.

We really need him to be getting all the calls in the 4th and in the stretch...that makes the heliocentric offense a whole lot more powerful.

Also, I don't think we have enough data this season under this system to know WHAT we have with KP and Luka or how they fit.  That's the fault of COVID and injuries, so it is what it is.

People that just want to trade KP for peanuts are stupid still...that's nonsense and they have officially let their money get mad, or rather they've positioned themselves on the KP is crap island and they are too prideful to come back off that.
They probable get numb to his objections.

[F Gump]

I agree with all of this, and I don't feel like I'm letting Luka off the hook for any of it in my head. 

But, I still think it's dumb to go away from what he does well offensively. Add nuance it, fine. Work to diversify it a bit, sure. Completely discard spread pick and roll as the basis for the system? I'm sorry, I just don't agree with that.

"I still think it's dumb to go away from what he does well offensively."

You got "Luka needs to change his style" from what I said? That's not at all what I was talking about.

Let me use different words this time.

I am a believer in the genius of Nellie's offfensive philosophy in general. He was a genius ahead of his time, and he would preach relentlessly about shooting pcts, not game stats, as the key to winning a game. Gotta win at points per shot.

Luka, right now, does not. He's mediocre (to be kind).

There are multiple ways to skin that cat. Find a way to shoot more layups. Draw more fouls (assuming you then convert at a high rate). Use 3s made at a high pct to bring the net result up. Become a better shooter overall.

But Luka is shooting less layups, less free throws, and his rate of making 3s and FTs is sinking (when they both needed to improve a lot already). He takes more shots than anyone, but his pts/shot is bad -- and as long as your volume shooter is not a great shooter, your ceiling is going to be low. His TS% is 53% which is abysmal. 

PGs without great shots, who also don't get to the rim, create issues for their own game and for team.

There are quite a few choices of ways for him to raise the bottom line. But it is on him, not teammates, to get better in the ways that fix the issue. I can't simply assume he will improve, when he's going the other way.

[F Gump]

Luka with his "lifeless crawl" lead most efficient offense of the league

No. This is not the top offense, because the pace has slowed to that crawl. The fact is, it's dead last in pace, resulting in a worse than average offense (17th).

Luka used to play at a faster pace. The faster it has been, the better, from then to now. As it's gotten slower, it's gotten worse, year by year.

[omahen]

No. This is not the top offense, because the pace has slowed to that crawl. The fact is, it's dead last in pace, resulting in a worse than average offense (17th).

Luka used to play at a faster pace. The faster it has been, the better, from then to now. As it's gotten slower, it's gotten worse, year by year.

But how can you pin that solely on Luka? Why is then the team without Luka playing even slower? That info alone should make you think that Luka might not be the only problem here.

[Scott41theMavs]

One of two things is happening here:

1) Your reading comprehension of anything I post is completely lacking.

2) You are trolling me.

If it is the first, please ask me questions or don't comment on my posts.

If it is the second, please stop it or leave the board. Trolling is not welcome here. Just because you pretend to be Followill does not make you exempt from the rules all the rest of us follow.

Dude, this is one of our best posters you're trying to run off here. Don't be so defensive.