ARTICLE: "Luka Doncic and Rick Carlisle: The dissolution of their relationship"

[KillerLeft]

I still think that remark was the own goal that ignited all the negative stories about the Rick-Mosley dynamic, and I think Rick's willingness to publicly appear to put his thumb on the scale on the way out was beneath him. 

This isn't meant as a defense of Coach Carlisle, but I don't think it's clear that his comments were anti-Mosley, or that such an angle even entered into his thinking. I flat out don't think Cuban or Carlisle thought Mosley was ready for this gig and that he was likely ruled out before we even found out the job was open. 

Maybe Carlisle should have been more sensitive to Mosley and thought harder about how the comments would seem - that's valid. But, I don't think it was intentionally meant to diminish Mosley's shine. I don't think the guy ever had a chance, and as I said, I'd be shocked if Carlisle didn't already know Kidd was a done deal at the time of the comments. Whether you think as I do about the motivations or subscribe to the "petty mind games on the way out" theory, it's definitely a stretch (either way) to pin any part of the actual, resulting decision on Carlisle, who no longer worked here. I've actually seen people speculate about that.

[MangaAfterDark]

I'm weird though.  I'd have Tyson on my list too.  And I wouldn't include Jet.

Not including Jet is definitely a spicy take, and I am here for it hahaha. In all seriousness, the fanbase was always unfair to Jet since he was our defacto No2 after JHo started to decline. in my opinion, Jet was Jet and he suffered most of the backlash when we lost since he was not good enough in that role, but he was vindicated somewhat at the end when we won it all!!!

[mavsluvr]

Is a high-level starter not one of your best players? DSJ was drafted in the hope he becomes a borderline allstar, which would have made him a conerstone but the team (myself and other DSJ fans) was wrong. He was not drafter to give us 15 minutes off the bench. We can agree to disagree on the definition of "cornerstone", but I am curious, how do yall view THJ, what we paid him, and what his role on the team is? THJ got paid to be a high-level contributor on a winning team for years to come. Was JET not a cornerstone either?

I think we may just be dealing with a semantics issue here. 

You seem to be using "franchise cornerstone" to mean "solid starter." Whereas, I think some others of us are using the term in the more usual sense of a truly exceptional talent on whom the success of the franchise is primarily built. 

In this meaning of the word, borderline all-stars are not franchise cornerstones. I think THJ is a high-quality player worthy of a starting position in the league, but I don't consider him a franchise cornerstone. I think Dirk was the cornerstone of the championship era team, but I think a case is easily made for Jet as a very important building block (much more critical than just a competent starter). 

If DSJ was really expected to be that sort of talent, I don't think he would have been available at the ninth pick. And the TOT apparently weren't in agreement that he was the best candidate even at nine. 

I don't say any of this to trash DSJ. If DSJ's departing Dallas was indeed a significant factor in Luka's supposedly becoming disaffected with the organization, then it's good to know why that was the case, whether DSJ was a franchise cornerstone or a competent starter or a guy who rarely saw minutes. I see this story as one more about Luka and Carlisle than DSJ, although I agree that a quick read could result in its being interpreted as a story about the Mavs having done DSJ wrong.

[KillerLeft]

I can't say DFS is a cornerstone. 

But I can say that the second this thing gets figured out, someone exactly like him will be the missing, finishing touch if moving on from him is part of the way to get from here to there. You do it if you have to, but you'll need to be ready to struggle trying to someone to replace what he contributes.

[cow]

Not including Jet is definitely a spicy take, and I am here for it hahaha. In all seriousness, the fanbase was always unfair to Jet since he was our defacto No2 after JHo started to decline. in my opinion, Jet was Jet and he suffered most of the backlash when we lost since he was not good enough in that role, but he was vindicated somewhat at the end when we won it all!!!

Jet was huge in the playoff run to the title.  I've got a lot of respect for him as a player, defensive lapses and all.  His personality rubs me the wrong way.  

I'm also overboard with DFS but he's the ultimate glue guy and the only dog on the team.  If he's trade or not resigned, we are going to miss the hell out of him.  I know everyone though Powell was going to be the torch bearer for Dirk's leadership and work ethic on the team, but I think DFS has quietly done that himself.

[MangaAfterDark]

I think we may just be dealing with a semantics issue here. 

You seem to be using "franchise cornerstone" to mean "solid starter." Whereas, I think some others of us are using the term in the more usual sense of a truly exceptional talent on whom the success of the franchise is primarily built. 

In this meaning of the word, borderline all-stars are not franchise cornerstones. I think THJ is a high-quality player worthy of a starting position in the league, but I don't consider him a franchise cornerstone. I think Dirk was the cornerstone of the championship era team, but I think a case is easily made for Jet as a very important building block (much more critical than just a competent starter). 

If DSJ was really expected to be that sort of talent, I don't think he would have been available at the ninth pick. And the TOT apparently weren't in agreement that he was the best candidate even at nine. 

I don't say any of this to trash DSJ. If DSJ's departing Dallas was indeed a significant factor in Luka's supposedly becoming disaffected with the organization, then it's good to know why that was the case, whether DSJ was a franchise cornerstone or a competent starter or a guy who rarely saw minutes. I see this story as one more about Luka and Carlisle than DSJ, although I agree that a quick read could result in its being interpreted as a story about the Mavs having done DSJ wrong.

I agree will all of your points, but I think the title win washed over all of the frustration the fans had with JET all of those years. I do not think we would include JET in a cornerstone list or even truly appreciated what he did for this franchise if he and Dirk do not go scorched Earth on the Heat in '11

[KillerLeft]

I don't say any of this to trash DSJ. If DSJ's departing Dallas was indeed a significant factor in Luka's supposedly becoming disaffected with the organization, then it's good to know why that was the case, whether DSJ was a franchise cornerstone or a competent starter or a guy who rarely saw minutes. I see this story as one more about Luka and Carlisle than DSJ, although I agree that a quick read could result in its being interpreted as a story about the Mavs having done DSJ wrong.

The problem is that it's all filtered through someone else's agenda, or at the very least someone else's memory. 

For example, "if DSJs departing Dallas was indeed a significant factor in Luka's supposedly becoming disaffected with the organization" then couldn't that be reframed to make the point that Luka would rather play with DSJ than with KP? Personally, I just don't believe that, and I'm not KP's biggest fan (shocking, I know). 

[mavsluvr]

I agree will all of your points, but I think the title win washed over all of the frustration the fans had with JET all of those years. I do not think we would include JET in a cornerstone list or even truly appreciated what he did for this franchise if he and Dirk do not go scorched Earth on the Heat in '11

Very possible.

[mavsluvr]

The problem is that it's all filtered through someone else's agenda, or at the very least someone else's memory. 

For example, "if DSJs departing Dallas was indeed a significant factor in Luka's supposedly becoming disaffected with the organization" then couldn't that be reframed to make the point that Luka would rather play with DSJ than with KP? Personally, I just don't believe that, and I'm not KP's biggest fan (shocking, I know). 

That's really my point. To the extent that DSJ was a source for the article, we are hearing a story filtered through his agenda/memory, and there didn't seem to be any pushback on that in the rest of the article. 

I personally don't particularly buy that Luka was extremely disaffected with the organization as an overall matter. Or that, even if he was, it was primarily because he was mad about the treatment of DSJ. Or even if he liked playing with DSJ, that that necessarily means he preferred playing with DSJ over playing with KP or any other particular talent in the league. 

I don't doubt that there were aspects of the situation that Luka didn't like, of course. That would be true of most everyone who holds a job. 

I don't detect that McMahon had any particular agenda here, other than the important one of dramatizing his article, which he has imo tried to achieve by presenting some particular situations as possibly more conflictual and/or critical than they really may have been. 

The two main examples he uses of Luka's dissatisfaction with Rick's harsh treatment of his friends involve Salah and DSJ. The one involving Salah happened before Luka was even associated with the team. The ones involving DSJ are presented as curiously central to Luka's view of the organization, considering DSJ's level of importance compared to the totality of everything going on, and even as compared to Luka himself. Which is just to say that they warrant some thought regarding where all this is coming from. 

I am not saying that anything McMahon reported didn't actually happen. But, as you point out, this type of story has to be read with a consideration of the agendas of the reporter/sources.

[JamesConway]

I’m so done with the MBT-stuff, it’s not even getting to me anymore. I’m just glad 2/3 of the problem are gone although it‘s incredibly unfortunate that Cuban is still around doing his best to ruin the Luka era. 

Re Rick/Mitchell: that’s an equally pathetic attempt to make RC look good as the Donnie/Giannis stuff. If either one was convinced of the players they easily could have traded into the back end of the lottery. Pop gave up prime George Hill for the pick that ended up being Kawhi. Rick/Donnie never cared to sell of one of their precious veterans for young players so just shut the hell up. We have a full decade of their horrendous track record on these matters. 

These guys couldn’t even tank properly. 

The winning culture BS and their chase for the glorious 8th seed trophy and the right to get destroyed in the 1st round for a whole decade is their legacy. 

These guys tried everything in their power to ruin the Luka era and right now it’s actually looking pretty bleak.

Re MacMahon: he sure seems to have his agendas but he’s actually a pretty on point with reports like these unlike the rest of DAL toothless media like Townsend/Followill/Skin/Sefko. Half of these guys are employed by Cuban so you’re always gonna get the organization‘s spin. And Townsend probably saw how Price/Sefko got picked up by mavs.com so he’s not gonna burn any bridges either. The rest are some internet bloggers with limited audiences. 

I appreciate guys like MacMahon/Cato A LOT. They’ve at least been trying to shed some light on how shitty things have been around here since the championship.

The media coverage will only get harsher now that the national media is picking up on how insane it is that guys like Dwight Powell are still penciled in as starters alongside Luka.

[khaled1987]

I think that the reason the Jamahl thing even came to public attention was Rick's implicitly throwing Jamahl under the bus on the way out, volunteering a hope that Kidd would succeed him when Mosley was still considered a candidate. Thus inviting public scrutiny as to why he would do such a weird thing. 


I was disappointed in the unforced error at the time, but it sounds like he was quite frustrated, and I guess we all have our moments of weakness.

Mcmahon said the Mosley rumour before RC talked to him, when he was desperate to get clicks while Cato was getting all the attention.

RC talked about Kidd when he was hired with Pacers, and few hours later it was announced that Kidd will be our coach, through ESPN. 
Was clear to me that RC was more or less their source to the story, he knew all about it and just gave his blessing, for whatever reason, to Kidd. 
 

The Mitchell vs DSJ thing is interesting in that maybe Rick had a lot less influence over the roster than I thought.  It just begs so many questions:

-Was Rick consulted on Rondo?
-If Rick didn't have much of a voice and Donnie really wanted Giannis, is that blunder solely on Cuban?

Cuban and RC talked about it after, and it was said that RC tried to block the deal as he didn't think Rondo fit the team, Cuban went with it anyway. Cuban talked that this was a "lesson" to him to hear his coach. 
Worth noting that RC was always the highest profile coach who never assumed any front office job, and that was during a time that this was considered normal. 
Last time he renewed he was best paid coach with zero front office task.

I think he simply was a consultant at best regarding roster structure, I am sure his opinion was valued but not to the extent a long tenured coach like him would be.
That said, despite him being right, I think coach should not have big say in draft.

[Scott41theMavs]

Re MacMahon: he sure seems to have his agendas but he’s actually a pretty on point with reports like these unlike the rest of DAL toothless media like Townsend/Followill/Skin/Sefko. Half of these guys are employed by Cuban so you’re always gonna get the organization‘s spin. 

Don't talk about mavsluvr that way.

[hakeemfaan]

I found the article to be a bit too anti RC in that one could have written the same article and made Luka the villain of the piece. A brash 20 year old coming in, not getting along with a championship coach, even though the coach actually went out of his way to create an offense that catered to this new star. 

A lot of things were kinda known. The surprising thing was the DSJ one That part I am not 100% sold because there are at least a couple of instances that I can remember where DSJ took the clutch shot and Luka was visibly upset on the court. Even the Wes, Barnes, DeAndre freeze out seemed to happen because those guys felt that Luka was too demanding of the ball and wanting someone else to bring it up. Now they are making out that Luka and DSJ were best buddies and Luka wanted him here? I find that hard to believe. Also if Mosley was so beloved why was he not promoted to be the HC? 


Plus they traded all those veterans away because they were not happy with Luka hogging the ball. Now year 4 we are saying this team needs more veterans who can teach Luka to not hog the ball? Ironic. 

The bottom line is this is a rudderless boat right now because the man in charge Cuban has let it get to that point. That whole mess mentioned in that article should have had a quick fix if a decisive captain was at the helm.

[dynamicalVoid]

What I took from this article...

Dirk recognizes talent.  Rondo is a baller.  Was a baller still when Mavs got him.   

How was anyone to know that Rondo would act like that?  And...why was the Analytics department so against Rondo?  His shooting percentages?  Their numbers crunched up a conclusion that Rondo had a high probability he would "act out"?

Know one knew it then...but Rondo seems to be hitting the 3 these days.

Anyway...Im glad someone in the building recognizes ballers.

[fifteenth]

Im glad someone in the building recognizes ballers

The analytics department might have been hesitant because the offense was humming along so nicely, and that Rondo couldn't shoot at the time. They ended up being right about Rondo's impact on the offense (if that was their issue). 

I'll say something that might agree with what you're saying. If Ronda had bought in, ideally, his defense and playmaking could have more than made up for the drop in offenvise efficiency in the playoffs, especially since, nice, efficient offenses don't always remain that effiicient in the playoffs.

[mavsluvr]

What I took from this article...

Dirk recognizes talent.  Rondo is a baller.  Was a baller still when Mavs got him.   

How was anyone to know that Rondo would act like that?  And...why was the Analytics department so against Rondo?  His shooting percentages?  Their numbers crunched up a conclusion that Rondo had a high probability he would "act out"?

Know one knew it then...but Rondo seems to be hitting the 3 these days.

Anyway...Im glad someone in the building recognizes ballers.

Did the article mention Rondo?

Iirc, the analytics department did not think Rondo would fit well in the system the Mavs were running, as there did not seem to be a place in it for a non-shooting guard, and Rondo liked to run a slow-paced, half-court offense, which wasn't what the Mavs wanted to do then. At the time, Rondo wasn't making many threes. 

Going from memory again, I recall that Rondo had had a few behavioral issues, but that the reported main reason for Boston getting rid of him was that he was never the same player after his injury, he was the last remnant of their latest championship team, and they wanted to move on. 

I believe the front office feared that Rondo would not be enthusiastic or particularly effective in a system where he would have to make threes, play fast, and share control of the offense with Rick. However, Dirk badly wanted a better PG, Rondo was available, and I think they feared alienating Dirk more than they feared the effects of Rondo's displeasure. I don't think they anticipated the extent of Rondo's acting out (which was extraordinarily unprofessional), but he was never happy here, and he probably wasn't coming back at the end of the season, anyway, so just as well that he left when he did, considering the circumstances. 

Rondo has evidently figured out now that there is no longer a place in the NBA (let alone just the Mavs) for a guard who can't shoot, and he has apparently worked on that since his brief stint here. 

I don't remember the article talking about Rondo, but I suppose he is another example of a guy who didn't hit it off with Rick, and arguably wasn't a great choice for this team in the first place. As far as talent is concerned, Rondo was really good before his knee had to be reconstructed. A guy can be a skilled and talented player, and still not fit in very well within certain styles of play. I think for a point guard, fit is particularly important. Having said that, I don't blame Dirk for wanting a better point guard, and think it is too bad the organization's inability to find one made it necessary for Dirk to force the issue with Rondo, if that it indeed what happened.

[dynamicalVoid]

Did the article mention Rondo?

Iirc, the analytics department did not think Rondo would fit well in the system the Mavs were running, as there did not seem to be a place in it for a non-shooting guard, and Rondo liked to run a slow-paced, half-court offense, which wasn't what the Mavs wanted to do then. At the time, Rondo wasn't making many threes. 

Going from memory again, I recall that Rondo had had a few behavioral issues, but that the reported main reason for Boston getting rid of him was that he was never the same player after his injury, he was the last remnant of their latest championship team, and they wanted to move on. 

I believe the front office feared that Rondo would not be enthusiastic or particularly effective in a system where he would have to make threes, play fast, and share control of the offense with Rick. However, Dirk badly wanted a better PG, Rondo was available, and I think they feared alienating Dirk more than they feared the effects of Rondo's displeasure. I don't think they anticipated the extent of Rondo's acting out (which was extraordinarily unprofessional), but he was never happy here, and he probably wasn't coming back at the end of the season, anyway, so just as well that he left when he did, considering the circumstances. 

Rondo has evidently figured out now that there is no longer a place in the NBA (let alone just the Mavs) for a guard who can't shoot, and he has apparently worked on that since his brief stint here. 

I don't remember the article talking about Rondo, but I suppose he is another example of a guy who didn't hit it off with Rick, and arguably wasn't a great choice for this team in the first place. As far as talent is concerned, Rondo was really good before his knee had to be reconstructed. A guy can be a skilled and talented player, and still not fit in very well within certain styles of play. I think for a point guard, fit is particularly important. Having said that, I don't blame Dirk for wanting a better point guard, and think it is too bad the organization's inability to find one made it necessary for Dirk to force the issue with Rondo, if that it indeed what happened.

I read an article linked here...I assumed it was the article by McMahan from ESPN or whatever...and it mentioned Dirk wanting Rondo and the Analytics department was against it.  I believe it was the same article that DSJ tweeted was true.

Anyway.   Our team is getting open looks...cant deny that.   But our players are underwhelming.  Obviously the analytics department doesnt have final say because we got Rondo...but whoever is signing these one trick ponies needs to look into more talented players...like Rondo.   Thats what I am trying to say.   I get the whole scheme thing.

[mavsluvr]

I read an article linked here...I assumed it was the article by McMahan from ESPN or whatever...and it mentioned Dirk wanting Rondo and the Analytics department was against it.  I believe it was the same article that DSJ tweeted was true.

Anyway.   Our team is getting open looks...cant deny that.   But our players are underwhelming.  Obviously the analytics department doesnt have final say because we got Rondo...but whoever is signing these one trick ponies needs to look into more talented players...like Rondo.   Thats what I am trying to say.   I get the whole scheme thing.

I think the Rondo stuff came up in conversation discussing the article. Maybe in connection with questions raised as to how much or little power Rick actually had in terms of signing players. 

Believe me, I'm not defending the front office in terms of their ability or lack thereof to secure appropriate talent to support their superstars. Was just attempting to answer your question about what the thinking might have been on the Rondo situation. I agree with you that they need to find more talented players. I don't think they necessarily should try to sign Rondo, even if he is available. But sure, more talent > less talent.

[hakeemfaan]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NGIdwu6LuGg

[BackToSquareOne]

I found the article to be a bit too anti RC in that one could have written the same article and made Luka the villain of the piece. A brash 20 year old coming in, not getting along with a championship coach, even though the coach actually went out of his way to create an offense that catered to this new star. 

It beats me why people keep referring to Carlisle like this. He lucked into winning one championship through being employed by the Mavs when they didn't completely screw the pooch on a line up during the endless years of Dirk. But that was a decade ago - it's ancient history. It's not like he's Pat Riley or Phil Jackson.