Mavs have a leadership problem | Cuban and Harlabob argue on Twitter

[omahen]

Luka needs to step out of the spotlight sometimes and allow others to have their moment.

But I don't think he will ever do that.  He is so ball dominant that I don't think he will ever be able to not have the ball in his hands.  

??? Do you remember the game Brunson won this season with Luka giving him the ball all through fourth quarter just as one most recent example. I am certain Luka has zero problems giving up the spotlight. Reality is there are very few options for Luka to give up the ball and watch them cook on this Mavs team.

[dirkfansince1998]

Somebody needs to convince Luka to join Holger and Dirk on a backpacking trip. Australia and New Zealand. No internet.

[omahen]

I mentioned that Dragic would really help.

Dragic certainly is a person Luka respects. Not sure how much he has left in the tank. Questionable how to involve him, THJ and Brunson with Luka - none of them is a great defender. Would Brunson accept another guard or would that be a final nail in that coffin?

[Kammrath]

Somebody needs to convince Luka to join Holger and Dirk on a backpacking trip. Australia and New Zealand. No internet.

[Mavs2021]

Here we don't agree. Not everyone is a leader. Some need more time to grow up. I don't see that as a problem. But you need to assess what it is and act accordingly. If Luka is not ready to be a leader, you have to help him, not throwing him under the bus forcing him to become something he is not ready to be. If this is how we are, so why don't we expect Dorian/Maxi/Bullock to become good creators, KP to be great post up player and so on? We don't. We accept them for who they are and utilize their strengths. At least I do. 

 Look what Phoenix did when they gave their team and their star player a leader.

They already had a great leader in Ricky Rubio. What they got their star player is an even better player than Ricky Rubio in CP3. Maybe Trey Burke is a great leader. Maybe Powell, WCS and Boban are great leaders. Totally possible. They are also not very good at basketball and combined get paid as much as Sabonis, Turner, Markkanen or Allen. All we had to do this summer was let THJ walk, dump Kleber and we could have offered John Collins a max contract. If that had failed, we could have picked up Markkanen later, because the Bulls would not have matched any reasonable offer sheet.

We always have these opportunities to add talent, but we waste them.

Bagley, Bamba and Reddish are probably next in line, cause people are convinced Kleber, Powell and Bullock are just as good, and more winning basketball players.

[burekemde]

Great posts by KillerLeft, Omahen and ML!

It is impressive how much criticism is on Luka. I feel as if Skip Bayless is in the forum here among the posters. But among these comments, holds also truth, which is also important to acknowledge, that the team indeed lacks veteran leadership , and also that Luka doesn't provide that. It's absolutely correct. The only thing is that a 22 year old is not able to provide that, and is not expected to, he provides so many other things. The truth is that the team lacks that 28-30 year old second star or superstar to win the championship. Otherwise, this team has some complementary players, that can perform consistently game in and game out, to support such a run: in KP, Maxi and Brunson and DFS. These guys are consistent enough to support a championship, but the team needs that veteran star to show the way to play every game well, on both ends. And possibly even one more additional piece in the catergory talent level of "KP, Maxi, Brunson, DFS".

My view is that Luka is obviously not the perfect player, he has deficiencies. However, what he adds to the team is far far more than the few/some mistakes he makes, and as it is pointed out, those mistakes are mostly related to his age, not his skillset, which makes it even better. The guy is so young he is playing Fortnite like many teenagers do. It is so easy to start blaming him when the team is not doing well. And I have to say this: If this franchise starts doing the same as some of the posters here, we will lose Luka, sooner rather than later, and not get the prime Luka as ML points out is in quiet some years when his brain starts to mature. At that time he will have maturity and be even better, which is absolutely scary to think about. At that time he will start doing many of the things DFS does, the small things on defense etc. and maturity that just takes years to develop. If you see another 22 year old that are the veteran leaders on their team, telling everyone what they should do and set examples, doing many of those small things correct, let me know.

When you are 22 you have emotions you just can't control. This is what you learn with time, and years, and at mid- and end- 20s you can gain the experience how to control these emotions. At 22 years, at least Luka has shown he can control himself OFF the court, which many 22 year old are not able to do, especially if you get 200 mill. He needs a lot of credit for that. Some mention his lack of shape, I just cant see that at all, if there is something its very little effect at best and looks more like tiredness at times, and keep in mind he didn't had a summer off, and could be really tired from playing the Olympics, in which he dominated completely and would not have done if not in shape. Look instead at Williamson. Or look at some stars historically that got in major off court troubles. Luka is professional, as much as any 22 year has ever shown to be. Taking the end of games responsibility is also leadership and being professional. Or always taking the blame for losses with media, even when he was playing bad and rest of the team did not. That is also being professional.

The team absolutely needs a veteran presence in another star or superstar. In that sense we could much better use a veteran star, rather than a young superstar. Which makes KP acquisition also questionable from that standpoint. Someone that brings skills that we don't have right now. To me it's that mid-ranger. It's the play that can keep you in games, even when you run out of ideas how to attack an opponent. Sort of what we saw from Brandon Ingram yesterday, just a veteran that also adds defense and maturity. I was  a fan of Vucevic and DeRozan, for this role for Mavs. Both bring the mid range game and inside game around the rim, that our bigs and wings do NOT provide, besides Bobi, that has other deficiencies. Look it at this way: Maxi, WCS, KP, DFS, Powell, none of these guys can hit a mid-ranger in the flow of the offense in game situations, other than a static free throw. I'm not sure these two are those players, and there might be much better examples than Vucevic and DeRozan, but it's more on the kind of point I want to make. My point is that the team needs someone older that consistently plays well, and adds a star with maturity and skills we do not have.

And consistency is the main thing in the game in my view. Luka is super consistent, he is among the most consistent players in the league. We just have a series of players that can have great games, and then get lost in next games. As much as I love THJ and maturity he brings etc., he is one of those players. Brunson, Maxi, DFS, KP, Bobi. Thats the consistent core, outside of Luka.

Look at it from historical point of view. Oscar Robertson was the veteran superstar when Kareem started and brought that veteran leadership that the younger superstar didn't have. It resulted in a championship. Same guy later in his career, Kareem, provided that for Magic Johnson. 

There is no way Luka on his own with this team create a contender. A young Jordan would not have, and Luka is not able as well. IMO, what Luka has accomplished so far is out of the ordinary. After his arrival, the Mavs have transformed from a tanking team to a regular playoff team, that gave Kawhi/PG a match to the end. And still remember, we are 12-11 record and are going to playoffs if this keeps up. Which is impressive given the talent level we have.

I think what we need to do is to keep Luka happy, and give him plenty of time to mature and fix those things. Not in one game time, until next game. I mean give him some years to gradually learn that.

If we really want to speed that up, and we really do, you add a veteran superstar, that has the maturity and can lead the team, and that will make Luka acquire the mature faster than figuring it out on his own.

[Moviemavguy]

Why isn't THJ a voice of leadership?  Can anyone tell me what he does outside of hitting threes 2 of 7 games?

[mavsluvr]

Why isn't THJ a voice of leadership?  Can anyone tell me what he does outside of hitting threes 2 of 7 games?

Do we know that he isn't? Kidd has made a point of complimenting him on being a vocal team leader on multiple occasions. 

I don't have personal knowledge one way or the other, but having a shooting slump doesn't necessarily mean you are lacking in leadership qualities.

[Moviemavguy]

Luka needs to step out of the spotlight sometimes and allow others to have their moment.

But I don't think he will ever do that.  He is so ball dominant that I don't think he will ever be able to not have the ball in his hands.  

Personally I think the Mavs should use KP like the way Avery used Howard in the mid 2000s.  Howard would be a first half scorer and then Dirk and Terry would be the finishers in the second half.  

KP should get plenty of opportunities to score in the first half and Luka be the closer.  There are way too many games where Luka comes out with like 10-15 points in the first quarter and no one else is involved.  But I don't believe for a second that anyone could tell Luka what to do.  Dirk would take advice from nearly anyone.  Luka (IMO) doesn't seem like he is willing to listen.

Howard could handle the ball.  Big difference.  KP can sometimes drive but you don't want him taking too many dribbles.  Lack of ball handlers is something fans have been screaming from the mountain top about.  

And who hasn't had the opportunity to have their moment?  I'll wait...

---

Do we know that he isn't? Kidd has made a point of complimenting him on being a vocal team leader on multiple occasions. 

I don't have personal knowledge one way or the other, but having a shooting slump doesn't necessarily mean you are lacking in leadership qualities.

Leaders generally lead by example.  It isn't just a shooting slump.  He isn't a good defender, passer, or rebounder either.  

Have you ever seen THJ get in a players face or play with immense passion?  If so, it is few and far between.

[mavsluvr]

Leaders generally lead by example.  It isn't just a shooting slump.  He isn't a good defender, passer, or rebounder either.  

Have you ever seen THJ get in a players face or play with immense passion?  If so, it is few and far between.

Are we talking about being a leader? Or about being a good defender, passer or rebounder? Those are different things, requiring different skill sets. A team's best player isn't necessarily the team's sage village elder. I don't think getting in players' faces is a particular indication that a guy is a leader. 


Kidd thinks Timmy is a vocal team leader on the court. I don't know why he would make that up, and I don't have the personal knowledge to affirm or deny. 

It seems like you are disappointed in Timmy as a player, but I don't know that either of us is in a position to credibly say that he isn't a leader, when Kidd says he is. Is it more complicated than that?

[dirkfansince1998]

Leaders generally lead by example.  It isn't just a shooting slump.  He isn't a good defender, passer, or rebounder either.  

Have you ever seen THJ get in a players face or play with immense passion?  If so, it is few and far between.

Since he arrived in Dallas no Mavs player has drawn more charges. Isn´t that exactly the kind of energy you are asking for?

[vfromlmf]

Why isn't THJ a voice of leadership? 

If he's trying he's sure not doing a good job. He either can't or doesn't play defense. He's beaten like a drum off the dribble. He hunts shots. He hangs his head when he misses. He tosses his hands up when guys make defensive mistakes. 

THJ is a shooter who can get as hot as anyone. He's a fine player. But to reuse a phrase someone else posted earlier "he's no leader of men." By that I mean elder statesman, talking in the huddle and saying the right stuff to the media aren't the aspects of leadership this team is missing.

[mavsluvr]

If he's trying he's sure not doing a good job. He either can't or doesn't play defense. He's beaten like a drum off the dribble. He hunts shots. He hangs his head when he misses. He tosses his hands up when guys make defensive mistakes. 

THJ is a shooter who can get as hot as anyone. He's a fine player. But to reuse a phrase someone else posted earlier "he's no leader of men." By that I mean elder statesman, talking in the huddle and saying the right stuff to the media aren't the aspects of leadership this team is missing.

There seems to be a fair amount of equating having a particular job-related skill with being a leader. You started this thread, so I guess you have a good idea of what you envision leadership to be, but I would submit that it doesn't consist of being a good rebounder, for example. In the sense of the word I thought you were using, I took it to mean a guy with wisdom, experience, the ability to shape a culture, being able to take a group in a certain direction, having skills in helping to set group goals and evaluate realistic plans to accomplish them. 

Those things usually wouldn't have much to do whether a guy can dribble, for example. Usually, leadership skills of that sort would tend to come more with age, perspective, seeing a lot of different situations, talent and expertise in dealing with people, and so forth. 

The type of things you describe as the elder statesman role are exactly the type of things Kidd says he does. I don't know for sure whether Tim is such a guy or not. Maybe he isn't. But a guy can be beaten off the dribble and still be an effective leader, and a guy who can hit threes at a high rate isn't necessarily an effective statesman.

[chaparral]

I really enjoyed reading this thread.  Thanks to VfromLMF for posting this topic.  Alot of good points from many different posters.  But can't help but wonder what Dan would have to say on this subject.  Haven't seen him around lately - hope all is OK.

But back to "Mavs have a leadership problem".  I agree, and it all starts with Cuban.  Yes, Luka is immature and only 22.  But that is why Kidd was hired, to help him grow as a PG and player.  Heck, Kidd even told us this in his intro presser.  He even mentioned that Luka was 22 years old 5 different times in that intro presser.

So here we are 20 games into the season talking about this issue.  Is Kidd really helping Luka grow as a PG and player this season?  I'm going to say if he has, I can't tell from what I see on the TV.  Plus, a lot of us still think he needs a vet PG mentor on the team.  Dragic mentioned the most and Rubio mentioned some.  Is there anyone else that could fill that role? 

Other good points from this tread - Luka is 22 and players prime years are somewhere around 28 to 32 years of age.  But Luka has been playing pro ball since he's been 13.  What if Luka is in his prime years now?  Also, being a pro since 13 he has had plenty of mentors or learning experiences already, more so than a 22-year-old coming from collage.  

Another point said was - He got his money already.  Wow, I hope he is not this type of person.  Even if he can see that the MBT did nothing to improve this team the last few years.  If he is this type of person - I think I will end up _____....

Again, thanks to all for a good read today.  Let's hope Kidd helps Luka mature.  And Nico can convince Cuban to let him run the team.

[vfromlmf]

I guess you have a good idea of what you envision leadership to be

I just mean grow up, play hard, play defense and quit bitching. Be accountable to winning habits and hold others to the same high standard.

[hakeemfaan]

Great post, and I mostly agree. And, I feel that I, as president of the Carlisle fan club, have bent over backwards to make it clear that I'm giving Kidd and his ideas a chance. At least, that's how I'm trying to approach things. I've written many times giving him credit for some specific things. 

Ultimately, I agree with your assessment that he hasn't really earned this opportunity, at least as a coach, but that doesn't mean he won't rise to it, I suppose. 

As to the portion I quoted, I don't think "PG with a ring" was the motivation. Sadly, I think it was more like "that's my buddy J-Kidd who I know pretends to enjoy me being around the team so much. He gets what makes my team so amazing."

Or maybe the fact that there were issues with RC and Luka, Cuban might be thinking who can get through to this guy at this age?  If an established coach like RC couldn’t the next best option, short of having a running mate like CP3, would be to get a coach who even Luka has to concede has proven himself on the court as an all time great at the same position Luka essentially plays. 

Not saying I agree if that was Mark’s rationale, but that is the only one that makes sense. Kidd has not been a great coach at any of his previous stops and ironically has the same rep as RC of not being a player’s coach. So it was a weird hire to say the least.  

OTOH, I can’t completely put your rationale aside either. Unfortunately Cuban is Cuban and a bit too infatuated with the whole celeb culture despite being a billionaire.

[burekemde]

Other good points from this tread - Luka is 22 and players prime years are somewhere around 28 to 32 years of age.  But Luka has been playing pro ball since he's been 13.  What if Luka is in his prime years now?  Also, being a pro since 13 he has had plenty of mentors or learning experiences already, more so than a 22-year-old coming from collage.  

There are hundreds of thousands young kids in Europe that started playing basketball at age 13. During Lukas time. None which even remotely come close to his level of play. If you look historically, many millions young kids that started that age or before. Arguably again none that were at his talent level, a few that definitely come close.

I often hear this as a negative. But this to me is a positive that he is just on much higher trajectory than everyone else. What should he have done otherwise, not excelled because it was too early? You cant blame him for excelling and being better. Ton of things he is improving in his game to this very day, one thing is mid-range game that he developed just last season. Another thing is man to man defense this season where he has really improved a lot. There are many areas he needs to improve, switching on defense, stop blaming refs (will come with age), free throws. I dont see those things as out of reality to add to his game with years.

[cow]

Or maybe the fact that there were issues with RC and Luka, Cuban might be thinking who can get through to this guy at this age?  If an established coach like RC couldn’t the next best option, short of having a running mate like CP3, would be to get a coach who even Luka has to concede has proven himself on the court as an all time great at the same position Luka essentially plays. 

Not saying I agree if that was Mark’s rationale, but that is the only one that makes sense. Kidd has not been a great coach at any of his previous stops and ironically has the same rep as RC of not being a player’s coach. So it was a weird hire to say the least.  

OTOH, I can’t completely put your rationale aside either. Unfortunately Cuban is Cuban and a bit too infatuated with the whole celeb culture despite being a billionaire.

I'm starting to think the most obvious solution was elevating Jamahl Mosley.  Sure he was Luka's coach before but not his head coach.  They seemed to have a really friendly relationship.  And that might be just the type of person that can be critical of Luka's shortcomings and have Luka be receptive to that criticism.

[mavsluvr]

I just mean grow up, play hard, play defense and quit bitching. Be accountable to winning habits and hold others to the same high standard.

Communication over the internet isn't always exact. 

I would have said your first sentence describes professionalism, rather than leadership. 

Certainly, we can expect Luka to be professional in the matter of, for example, playing defense. But as far as being a leader, Luka has such a disproportionate share of the offensive load, I don't think it is fair or realistic to also expect him to be the defensive maestro. Even Dirk needed Tyson Chandler. 

Bob Voulgaris gave a take on holding teammates to a standard recently, which I thought was interesting. It was in response to the Twitterverse being up in arms about Luka's teammates not holding him accountable. Firstly, teammates do not, strictly speaking, have the authority to hold each other accountable. Players are not allowed to impose fines, suspensions, etc. on other players. Their authority is of the persuasion, not the sanctioning, sort. 

Secondly, and perhaps more interestingly, he said it is not considered a part of most players' jobs to impose "soft" discipline on their teammates, and that effort of that sort is often affirmatively discouraged. They are expected to be supportive of each other, and to let the team deal with disciplinary issues. If they can have a good influence in terms of being a locker room leader, that is a useful role, but it's heavily weighted toward positive reinforcement. Luka has his hands full as it is, and it's really not his his job to regularly monitor and sanction his teammates' play, nor theirs to try to discipline him. That's not to say he shouldn't provide a good example by being professional, of course, and perhaps that's what you mean.

[hakeemfaan]

Leadership is extremely hard to pin. 

Russell Westbrook has been a terrific player, was a pillar of the community in OKC and yet stars who played next to him wanted out. Maybe it was OK more than Russ and those stars didn’t want to be there but who knows. 

Dirk led by example but Dirk was not a born leader and throughout his career, before and after the title run,  he struggled with the balance of when to be more aggressive and when to be a team type player.  We can’t forget the many game threads of us wishing Dirk would have shot more or asserted himself more. It was something he always struggled with. 

What I have loved about Luka is that he wants that leadership. I don’t think the Mavs had to force that on him by moving JJB away. Day 1 here he wanted the ball in his hands and he was ready to shoot in the clutch. I have always maintained that efficiency is not the be all / end all as there is a fine balance between efficiency and not wanting to take the big shot.  The fact that Luka has that attitude to go with his size and prodigious talent makes him a true alpha.  

Now it is up to him to realize that less talented or not, all the others here are professionals as well, and if he expects to dominate the ball it is a privilege that has been conferred on him and to understand what other things go with that privilege.  He has to work on other aspects as well such as conditioning, diet, trying his best on defense, and being a gym rat to up his FT and 3 pt percentages.  My comment on Luka last year was that he reminded me so much of a rec coach’s son. Talented but lazy and entitled and knowing no one will say anything because he is the coach’s son ( or in this case because even with all his flaws he is the rarest of commodities…a true franchise player)

So my take is Luka has part of what is needed and something Dirk never had. Plus he is more talented than Dirk because he can do things Dirk couldn’t do. However to be known as the best player the Mavs ever had, there is a long way to go for Luka to catch Dirk. I am not even putting a title as the bar. Just other things in terms of how Dirk was a consummate professional and a great teammate.