Of Freedom, Country and Vaccination

[sterlingmallory]

You can be free to choose to get the vaccine today or be mandated to get it tomorrow.  I don't think it's possible to enforce a country-wide federal mandate, but everything else will soon require it.  I can pretty much promise you that every private entity will require it a year from now if not sooner.  

The anti-vaxxers are just kicking and screaming themselves into a dead end.

Agreed, there will be no government enforced mandate and there shouldn't be. Whatever pressure will just come from society taking action where government can't. If you can't show proof of vaccination or a recent negative covid test then you just won't be allowed to go anywhere. Seems fair to me. If you refuse to do your part to protect others in society you live in then don't expect to receive the benefits of living in that society. And anyone who refuses to get vaccinated and ends up contracting covid, go ahead and do us all a favor and wait it out at home. Chances are you'll be fine, but if not, well you had your chance. Don't take up a hospital bed and ventilator from someone else who needs it.

[Jannemann2]

Yeah, I get all that. I just haven't seen a study on how effective the vaccine is for the Detla variant. Couldn't find that through CDC. It might be there, just didn't find it.

But not trying to get you to do research for me. Just thought I'd see if you already knew of a study.

Hey fifteenth, https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/...21264260v1 might provide some of the information you're looking for. Note this is a pre-print and has not been through the full review process but is considered as a well designed study by some of the experts I found to be providing well backed up information.

"Conclusions Vaccination reduces transmission of Delta, but by less than the Alpha variant. The impact of vaccination decreased over time. Factors other than PCR-measured viral load are important in vaccine-associated transmission reductions. Booster vaccinations may help control transmission together with preventing infections."

What this study doesn't cover explicitly is the fact, that fully vaccinated people also have a lower risk to be infected at all, and their risk to develop severe cases of COVID-19 is far more reduced than the risk to catch COVID-19 at all compared to the unvaccinated (I think you already know this; If you need links to a studies showing this, I can have a look) :-).

Hope the link may provide a bit of ammunition to convince one or the other to get their shots and help themselves and all of us to get rid of this nasty pandemic.

[Dahlsim]

Same as in US people hate restrictions and a lot of are quick to "waive the democracy and human rights flag", which is understood by them as "I am allowed to basically do what I want and no one is allowed to p
revent me from doing it". Basically same thing you explain above.

Sigh.      that reflects a complete void of understanding about what our ideas of freedom and liberty are based on.rooted in. 
the basic idea of liberty and freedom here:  

You cannot really understand the foundations of American liberty, government and the constitution without understanding its connection to Theology i.e. to our understanding of the Creator and beliefs about what His revealed will is.  

Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence listed some “truths” which should be understood “self-evident.” 
1) all men are created equal,
(2) men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights,
(3) among the rights that men have are the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,
(4) governments are created to secure these unalienable rights,
(5) governments get their powers from the consent of the governed,
(6) when a form of government starts destroying people's rights, the people have the right to alter or abolish it and create a new government.
 
American liberties were / are rooted on 1st a common understanding and firm faith about our origins being from our Creator, God. 
A loss of understanding about God, theological losses ultimately leads to people no longer understanding what our freedoms should be under a Government that is by the people and for the people.  

Under Atheistic/Agnostic secularized value systems we inevitably revert back to giving our rights and even the control of our own bodies, to human authorities. 

President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add one nation under God to the United States Pledge of Allegiance  in direct response to the growing threat at the time from Communism, an ideology with Godless values pushing the belief that religion is simply "the opium of the people", Karl Marx
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." 


This is vast topic but for anyone interested in the relationship between our Constitutional government and our Judeo-Christian foundational beliefs: 
THE BIBLICAL FOUNDATION OF OUR CONSTITUTION
 

[Dahlsim]

I addressed the freedom question in the post above.  

The vaccination itself in my view is a distinct issue from forcing vaccinations which I find to be absolutely repugnant and immoral. 

The argument by the way that justifies forcing injections into citizens that don't want them because it affects other people could be extended to practically any individual freedom or right people have.  Most choices you make in your life can be shown to affect other people in your community or society directly or indirectly.  

If you choose to have a child you affect the society around you so lets let people who run the government decide if you should have a child, and maybe they'd like to get rid of some of the children you have already which aren't working so well for greater good as they see it. 

It is a specious argument to force injections on other people because of your own fears. 

On the vaccination itself again, I am not anti-vaccination which is in my view a word used just to dumb down any public debate. The issue I have is the deliberate suppression of any findings or data from Medical Scientists and Medical Doctors that do not conform to a pre determined agenda. 

For example there are many doctors, some of who are by every measure EXPERTS that do not agree with the predominant views on the effectiveness of the vaccine.  Some call its real safety into question as well.   
Is it acceptable to literally attack and blackball those doctors for simply presenting their own findings and views on the topic? 

Even data itself from studies that don't conform to the government view are being attacked and suppressed. 
For example: 
--------
Vaccinated People 3-times More Likely To Die From Delta Variant Than Unvaccinated 
--------
I'm not saying that the data there is correct nor am I saying how it should be correctly interpreted.  
That is a debate for Medical Doctors and Scientists of that field. I have read views interpreting that study already in different ways.  
My point is let's not pretend that Medical Science is saying one thing and so called "Anti-vaxxers" or religious zealots are the only people saying anything else.  The vaccination itself should not be a topic that cannot be debated in terms of efficacy or even safety.   

One final point on the topic. I notice one thing is curiously absent from all the discussion about the importance of the vaccination in reducing the spread of the virus which I presume is the strongest rational push for the vaccinations.   Of course there is debate as to whether it even reduces he spread since vaccinated people can still spread the virus to others, but why is there almost no discussion about potential adverse effects of the vaccination? 

Even the Center for Disease Control's own Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System gets attacked CDC's own Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting site 
This government site itself gets attacked just for making the data available (and they actually make it pretty hard for the average person to even access and analyze).  The government crushes dissent and debate in its own ranks. 

How can we or any individual for example weigh any potential risks of adverse events versus the benefits of reduced COVID impact if their is political pressure to suppress data or discussion on adverse events?

[Kammrath]

You cannot really understand the foundations of American liberty, government and the constitution without understanding its connection to Theology i.e. to our understanding of the Creator and beliefs about what His revealed will is. 

[Dahlsim]

Was it quoting the Declaration of Independence in a thread topic about Freedom and Country or something else I said? 

[Kammrath]

all men (white, land-owning men....not men of color or women) are created equal

FIFY

[soog]

I’m still upset about the whole seat belt mandate - who is the government to tell me I have to wear some fabric strip around my chest while I’m driving?!?!  How is something so dainty going to stop a manly man like me? And it’s my choice to protect my own life!  It doesn’t affect anyone but me.  If you don’t like it just let me get in a car wreck and die.  Then you won’t have to deal with me anymore.

And this whole car passport?!?!  Who is the government to tell me I can’t drive to a restaurant or drive to go shopping without first registering with them?!?! This is how it starts.  Why can’t I just hop in my car and go eat without the government getting involved?  Is this not a free country?  

So you all deal with your new age issues.  I’m old school and still fighting the original tyranny.

[fifteenth]

FIFY

It was good idea except for the excluding lots of humans from the definition of human part.

[haveitall]

I addressed the freedom question in the post above.  

The vaccination itself in my view is a distinct issue from forcing vaccinations which I find to be absolutely repugnant and immoral. 

The argument by the way that justifies forcing injections into citizens that don't want them because it affects other people could be extended to practically any individual freedom or right people have.  Most choices you make in your life can be shown to affect other people in your community or society directly or indirectly.  

If you choose to have a child you affect the society around you so lets let people who run the government decide if you should have a child, and maybe they'd like to get rid of some of the children you have already which aren't working so well for greater good as they see it. 

It is a specious argument to force injections on other people because of your own fears. 

On the vaccination itself again, I am not anti-vaccination which is in my view a word used just to dumb down any public debate. The issue I have is the deliberate suppression of any findings or data from Medical Scientists and Medical Doctors that do not conform to a pre determined agenda. 

For example there are many doctors, some of who are by every measure EXPERTS that do not agree with the predominant views on the effectiveness of the vaccine.  Some call its real safety into question as well.   
Is it acceptable to literally attack and blackball those doctors for simply presenting their own findings and views on the topic? 

Even data itself from studies that don't conform to the government view are being attacked and suppressed. 
For example: 
--------
Vaccinated People 3-times More Likely To Die From Delta Variant Than Unvaccinated 
--------
I'm not saying that the data there is correct nor am I saying how it should be correctly interpreted.  
That is a debate for Medical Doctors and Scientists of that field. I have read views interpreting that study already in different ways.  
My point is let's not pretend that Medical Science is saying one thing and so called "Anti-vaxxers" or religious zealots are the only people saying anything else.  The vaccination itself should not be a topic that cannot be debated in terms of efficacy or even safety.   

One final point on the topic. I notice one thing is curiously absent from all the discussion about the importance of the vaccination in reducing the spread of the virus which I presume is the strongest rational push for the vaccinations.   Of course there is debate as to whether it even reduces he spread since vaccinated people can still spread the virus to others, but why is there almost no discussion about potential adverse effects of the vaccination? 

Even the Center for Disease Control's own Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System gets attacked CDC's own Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting site 
This government site itself gets attacked just for making the data available (and they actually make it pretty hard for the average person to even access and analyze).  The government crushes dissent and debate in its own ranks. 

How can we or any individual for example weigh any potential risks of adverse events versus the benefits of reduced COVID impact if their is political pressure to suppress data or discussion on adverse events?

First I want to say that I make a living as a statistician.  The problem with the study that says that vaccinated people are 3 times as likely to die from the delta variant is the lack of information on the population.  Are the two groups the same age, and similar in health profile?  Clearly the sample size is too small and it does not need to be given the amount of data we have on the virus.  Most studies show the opposite statistics.  As far as side effects, COVID itself has many neurological side effects, and it can be argued that the virus is not naturally occurring but something that has been created in a lab.  The vaccine on the other hand scares a lot of people irrationally because they hear the word MRNA.  MRNA enters our bodies all the time, its in the oxygen we breath.  Its amazing that people who are terrified of the vaccine show up at hospitals and then receive treatment that is not FDA approved and follows the same idea to generate antibodies.   

As far as freedom goes, does it apply in times of war when a draft is instituted?  Is it right for the government to force its citizens to die for it because some politician decided to invade a distant country in Asia in order to position US power in the world?  Freedom is relative and I think people should have the choice not to get vaccinated.  They should be tested every week and quarantined forcibly if exposed.

The other question is who should pay the price for freedom.  If people choose not to get vaccinated and this causes emergency rooms to be overrun in Alabama, then should  people with heart attacks die waiting because an unvaccinated person has taken their bed?  Maybe if people are unvaccinated with COVID symptoms they should be treated in separate treatments centers?  Should doctors, nurses and EMT's be exposed to extra doses of COVID for freedom?

[chaparral]

Any Mavs bball news going on today???

[Dahlsim]

First I want to say that I make a living as a statistician.  The problem with the study   

As I said, I am not arguing the merits or interpretations of the study.  There something said about Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics.    The single study isn't even relevant to my point because there are others that don't conform to the officially sanctioned narrative.

My point is to defend the right of citizens to hear the interpretations from people like you and also from others that might be similarly credentialed but have a different interpretation of the data.  Do you agree with that? 

As far as freedom goes, does it apply in times of war when a draft is instituted? 

A draft is a different can of worms but for argument sakes let's just think about the basic idea.  If hypothetically there is a threat that an organized entity of some kind is actively working and planning to attack the country, maybe even go into your neighborhood and mine as American citizens then how do we as a country deal with that threat?

The merits can be debated on each individual war or action of the military but in general the defense of the country is something agreed to as critical by just about every country in existence.  At a certain point if its kill or be killed its not about some politician its about whether the average citizen working 9-5 even has enough information to know about the threat before it lands at their doorstep.

Whether a draft is needed to maintain or mount a defense is a different question.  At some point a country can decide it isn't necessary. That was 1973 for the United States.
If there was a clear imminent threat to us as citizens that could change again, quickly. 

A refusal to be drafted won't stop a possible enemy from coming to your doorstep and butchering families just as is currently happening in other countries.

The other question is who should pay the price for freedom.  If people choose not to get vaccinated and this causes emergency rooms to be overrun in Alabama, then should  people with heart attacks die waiting because an unvaccinated person has taken their bed? 

What about other diseases or behaviors that cause other people to run of resources that could save them?  Should we go back to prohibition because of all the harm we know alcoholism causes.  How about obesity?  Should we ration people's food forcibly until they meet the weight requirements because obesity is the known cause of many health issues affecting the system.  Eating too much sugar? 

There is also an basic assumption you make that the underlying causes of the covid problem is because of unvaccinated people.  Do we really know this to be accurate? There are numerous challenges to that assumption coming from many Medical experts and scientists.  

Many doctors and scientists have been under attack so the data to the public is artificially one-sided.  That's the problem that goes with suppression of free speech and expression.  Incomplete or false data inputs invalidate your assumptions.

Your statistics are no better than your underlying assumptions and the assumptions can only be based on the data inputs you are allowed to consider.

[WildArkieBoy]

Let this comment touch as many raw nerves as possible:

For our evangelical friends, the war against COVID-19 has been won.  Brother Kenneth Copeland, shouting from his God Ranch on Eagle Mountain Lake, made possible by your generous love offerings, told COVID to go straight to holy Hell.  

For my Arkansas friends:  The shortage of Clorox is due to Brother Trump's recommendation of injecting bleach to fight the nasty virus.  Buy Purex until the pandemic subsides.

As far as absolute freedom existing in other countries:  Please be aware that weed possession is an automatic life sentence in the Philippines.  Consider yourself fortunate that President Duterte doesn't execute the entire family of such a "drug pusher."

Absolute freedom?  bullshit.  Just look at what the so-called law of gravity has done to my sagging body.

[fifteenth]

Any Mavs bball news going on today???

Hope so!!! 

Fortunately it appears that we have the virus mostly contained in this thread. We have to be vigilant, though, because outbreaks are possible.

[Mavs2021]

Let this comment touch as many raw nerves as possible:

For our evangelical friends, the war against COVID-19 has been won.  Brother Kenneth Copeland, shouting from his God Ranch on Eagle Mountain Lake, made possible by your generous love offerings, told COVID to go straight to holy Hell.  

For my Arkansas friends:  The shortage of Clorox is due to Brother Trump's recommendation of injecting bleach to fight the nasty virus.  Buy Purex until the pandemic subsides.

As far as absolute freedom existing in other countries:  Please be aware that weed possession is an automatic life sentence in the Philippines.  Consider yourself fortunate that President Duterte doesn't execute the entire family of such a "drug pusher."

Absolute freedom?  bullshit.  Just look at what the so-called law of gravity has done to my sagging body.

Only a few days from the first pre-season game, but we are finally having our "Are Luka Doncic´s tattoos the devil" discussion of this off-season.

[fifteenth]

Let this comment touch as many raw nerves as possible:

For our evangelical friends, the war against COVID-19 has been won.  Brother Kenneth Copeland, shouting from his God Ranch on Eagle Mountain Lake, made possible by your generous love offerings, told COVID to go straight to holy Hell.  

For my Arkansas friends:  The shortage of Clorox is due to Brother Trump's recommendation of injecting bleach to fight the nasty virus.  Buy Purex until the pandemic subsides.

As far as absolute freedom existing in other countries:  Please be aware that weed possession is an automatic life sentence in the Philippines.  Consider yourself fortunate that President Duterte doesn't execute the entire family of such a "drug pusher."

Absolute freedom?  bullshit.  Just look at what the so-called law of gravity has done to my sagging body.

I'm infected with WAB love

[Halfnir]

Even data itself from studies that don't conform to the government view are being attacked and suppressed. 
For example: 
--------
Vaccinated People 3-times More Likely To Die From Delta Variant Than Unvaccinated 
--------
I'm not saying that the data there is correct nor am I saying how it should be correctly interpreted.  
That is a debate for Medical Doctors and Scientists of that field. I have read views interpreting that study already in different ways.  
My point is let's not pretend that Medical Science is saying one thing and so called "Anti-vaxxers" or religious zealots are the only people saying anything else.  The vaccination itself should not be a topic that cannot be debated in terms of efficacy or even safety.  

If you take a critical look at this article, you should be able to easily figure out two problems with it without being a statistics or medical expert:

A) the author of the article takes data from a government study and makes an own (misleading) analysis on this data while trying to make it look as this analysis is part of the study which is not the case.

B) the statistics are interpreted wrongly by not taking the vaccination rate and death risk of the different age groups into account. If you vaccinate 100% of the age 80+ group and noone else, 100% of all deaths in that group will be vaccinated persons. Now if 90% of total deaths of all age groups occur in this group, and you just sum up the total figures for all age groups, 90% of all deaths will be vaccinated persons. (Most countries started vaccinations for high risk groups like older persons and those with preexisting conditions first) The next misleading conclusion is that it looks like it's 9 times more likely to die from COVID after you received the vaccine.

Not considering these failed attempts at statistical analysis is not "shooting them down" but "exposing their flaws".

[fifteenth]

Only a few days from the first pre-season game, but we are finally having our "Are Luka Doncic´s tattoos the devil" discussion of this off-season.

I tried a few times earlier in the offseason, but it just didn't spread.

[Dahlsim]

all men (white, land-owning men....not men of color or women) are created equal

FIFY

Actually, I agree with the statement exactly as he originally wrote it.  I am a person of color and I see no reason to digress from the point on human equality over inequality by race which by the way was an idea the country did defeat given time right?  

That victory was accomplished by people of color and white abolitionists together, so maybe think about that before introducing a conflation fallacy to the Declaration of Independence.  

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government

[luka_skywalker_77]

FIFY

There is no mention of race in any of those statements. it was a foundational document that the country didn't live up to at times, and is still living up to to this day. As a person of color, i find that comment insulting to the legacies of millions of blacks that came after, understanding these foundations, and working together with people of all creeds to live up to those standards. So who are you or we to be ignore to those sacrifices because there were bad actors? Who are you to be the judge in that instance? Thou at a judge? That reeks of presentism.

---

I’m still upset about the whole seat belt mandate - who is the government to tell me I have to wear some fabric strip around my chest while I’m driving?!?!  How is something so dainty going to stop a manly man like me? And it’s my choice to protect my own life!  It doesn’t affect anyone but me.  If you don’t like it just let me get in a car wreck and die.  Then you won’t have to deal with me anymore.

And this whole car passport?!?!  Who is the government to tell me I can’t drive to a restaurant or drive to go shopping without first registering with them?!?! This is how it starts.  Why can’t I just hop in my car and go eat without the government getting my involved?  Is this not a free country?  

So you all deal with your new age issues.  I’m old school and still fighting the original tyranny.

Well, that's not really an analogous comparison and you know it. If the seat belt required you to have a substance of an experimental nature injected into your body that would theoretically save you or someone else from dying, you would have a completely different conversation. You cant compare a car's safety measure to a therapeutic similar to that of a flu shot and have it be taken seriously.

Let this comment touch as many raw nerves as possible:

For our evangelical friends, the war against COVID-19 has been won.  Brother Kenneth Copeland, shouting from his God Ranch on Eagle Mountain Lake, made possible by your generous love offerings, told COVID to go straight to holy Hell.  

For my Arkansas friends:  The shortage of Clorox is due to Brother Trump's recommendation of injecting bleach to fight the nasty virus.  Buy Purex until the pandemic subsides.

As far as absolute freedom existing in other countries:  Please be aware that weed possession is an automatic life sentence in the Philippines.  Consider yourself fortunate that President Duterte doesn't execute the entire family of such a "drug pusher."

Absolute freedom?  bullshit.  Just look at what the so-called law of gravity has done to my sagging body.

All you have to do is actually excise yourself from your bubble to realize that those that balk at the vaccinations are a fairly diverse group. Blacks, whites, Hispanics, evangelicals liberals etc. I talk to them every day as a matter of fact and they have good reasons. ven my nurses offer their concerns and tens of thousands have lost their jobs as a result. Care to know how many nurses are pocs? So this isnt an evangelical thing. it isnt a white thing.

True, infected people spread the virus similarly regardless of vaccination status. The missing piece is that vaccinated people are MUCH less likely to get infected in the first place, much less at a virus load high enough to cause transmission. 

Somehow a death toll of almost 700,000 Americans isn't enough of a big issue because it has been spread over about 20 months so it has become a sad event, but somehow short of a consolidating crisis.

Point #1: that is not true by any objectionable measure. In fact it's flat out false. I'll provide context if you need it, but there is literally no difference between the vaxxed and unvaxxed in terms of transmission and infection. And it's even debatable that its needed. 99% of those infected have mild cases and most don't even realize it in the first place, so the vaccine is essentially for that 1%. 

Point #2: Over 95% of all deaths from covid are over the age of 50. So unless you're old, with an comorbidity, overweight, etc. (all of which we have metrics for), you have not much to be too concerned about--especially if you've had a bout with covid and research shows (as it always has) that natural immunity is far superior to vaccine induced immunity, especially in this case. 

Agreed, there will be no government enforced mandate and there shouldn't be. Whatever pressure will just come from society taking action where government can't. If you can't show proof of vaccination or a recent negative covid test then you just won't be allowed to go anywhere. Seems fair to me. If you refuse to do your part to protect others in society you live in then don't expect to receive the benefits of living in that society. And anyone who refuses to get vaccinated and ends up contracting covid, go ahead and do us all a favor and wait it out at home. Chances are you'll be fine, but if not, well you had your chance. Don't take up a hospital bed and ventilator from someone else who needs it.

Which is correct. Gov't shouldn't be taking a seat at that table. Business has every right to do what they think will work based on all available evidence. To your other point, me making a conscious decision thats in the best interest of my own health isn't your concern. Me getting a vaccine doesn't protect you; it protects me. You can still catch covid from me just as well as you could catch it on your own despite being vaccinated. By now everyone has had the opportunity to get the shot and if they haven't, they've made a conscious decision not to for whatever reason. So you coercing/forcing someone to get a shot to protect someone isnt virtuous--its self righteous. And btw, hospitals are designed to run on against the margins. Remember we had this issue last year WITHOUT VACCINES? So when the ICU fill up, they want to blame it on the unvaxxed? Try blaming it on those firing employees for not getting the shots.

What was all this for if the result ended up being the same? Be better yet, let me know how it works next year after your third and fourth boosters. Then we'll see better what the long term effects of injected compound are because science says that it's not all good for your immune system... (but then again drug companies and politicians are truth tellers right? Big pharma has never been sued...)