Of Freedom, Country and Vaccination

[MFFL]

Just to play devil's advocate:  Can we also reject care for smokers and the obese if they are vaccinated?  There are idiots in every emergency room that have self inflected injuries.  Should those folks go to the back of the line?  Triage outside of immediate need is a really slippery slope.

Smokers and the obese are factored in the formula for how many hospital beds are ultimately needed

The anti-vaxx crowd is destroying our healthcare system's ability to provide care to all. I have a friend in Tyler who had his father die because he couldn't get a hospital bed in time. He spent DAYS in a strip mall emergency clinic waiting for an ICU bed - but they were all filled with Covid patients. And at that time 80% off all Covid patients in the hospital were unvaccinated

Someone else's rights & freedom shouldn't infringe on others

[cow]

Smokers and the obese are factored in the formula for how many hospital beds are ultimately needed

The anti-vaxx crowd is destroying our healthcare system's ability to provide care to all. I have a friend in Tyler who had his father die because he couldn't get a hospital bed in time. He spent DAYS in a strip mall emergency clinic waiting for an ICU bed - but they were all filled with Covid patients. And at that time 80% off all Covid patients in the hospital were unvaccinated

Someone else's rights & freedom shouldn't infringe on others

Smokers and the obese may be factored during normal times but not during a pandemic.  The point is that we probably don't want hospitals making judgements on a person's lifestyle when determining prioritization for care no matter how ill-informed those lifestyle choices are.   

Sorry for your and your friend's loss.   My FTD account has worked overtime this past year and a half.

[Benskix2]

If public health was a priority they wouldn't have anyone in the stands at all.  This is just Mark virtue signalling to the hipsters.

[Moviemavguy]

You can be free to choose to get the vaccine today or be mandated to get it tomorrow.  I don't think it's possible to enforce a country-wide federal mandate, but everything else will soon require it.  I can pretty much promise you that every private entity will require it a year from now if not sooner.  

The anti-vaxxers are just kicking and screaming themselves into a dead end.

[david75090]

The policy IS freedom of choice. If a person is unvaccinated they can show that they're Covid-free by showing the results of a recent test. Just don't show up to their crowded facility with an infectious disease. Seems reasonable. All bases are covered. A person doesn't HAVE to be vaccinated, just non-infected. Does someone WANT to infect someone? Probably not. Does someone want to be infected? Probably not.

[omahen]

Not to say that we don´t have our own weird freedom discussions. Current topic (honestly a popular topic all the time)...speed limit. Feels like every single developed country in the world enforces a speed limit. Not Germany. You cannot take away our freedom to go 150mph on the "Autobahn".

This one is so funny to me. In my experience, whenever I started a small talk conversation with a German, one of the things that came up in first half an hour was the question about speed limit on the autobahn and a proud statement how Germany doesn't have any limitations

[MFFL]

Smokers and the obese may be factored during normal times but not during a pandemic.  The point is that we probably don't want hospitals making judgements on a person's lifestyle when determining prioritization for care no matter how ill-informed those lifestyle choices are.   

The hospitals aren't making judgements but I am

The anti-vaxx crowd are directly responsible for this wave and the current overloading of the healthcare system

They aren't thinking about their freedoms, just their privilege

[fifteenth]

They aren't thinking about their freedoms, just their privilege

I'm pro vaccination, but I don't think you know what folks are thinking. Many have bought into misinformation. Many have been mistrusting of both government and pharmaceutical companies for decades. Many think, "I don't have underlying conditions and the vaccine doesn't keep me from spreading the virus". 

I think the way you approach the conversation, you're not likely to find out what other people think. You're just going to push their buttons and get a similarly polarizing answer from them. 

Also, regarding privilege, I think the conversation about privilege is real and needed. It is really a thing. But in this case, I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[IamDougieFresh]

I'm pro vaccination, but I don't think you know what folks are thinking. Many have bought into misinformation. Many have been mistrusting of both government and pharmaceutical companies for decades. Many think, "I don't have underlying conditions and the vaccine doesn't keep me from spreading the virus". 

I think the way you approach the conversation, you're not likely to find out what other people think. You're just going to push their buttons and get a similarly polarizing answer from them. 

Also, regarding privilege, I think the conversation about privilege is real and needed. It is really a think. But in this case, I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Also hard to call it privilege when African Americans are the largest unvaccinated group percentage wise.

[MFFL]

I think the way you approach the conversation, you're not likely to find out what other people think. You're just going to push their buttons and get a similarly polarizing answer from them. 

I'm not really interested in finding out what they think - just like I'm not interested in finding out what a racist is thinking. Anti-vaxxers are hurting the country

priv·i·lege
/ˈpriv(ə)lij/
noun
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.

right
/rīt/
noun: right; plural noun: rights; noun: the right; noun: Right; noun: the Right

a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way.

[fifteenth]

I'm not really interested in finding out what they think - just like I'm not interested in finding out what a racist is thinking. Anti-vaxxers are hurting the country

priv·i·lege
/ˈpriv(ə)lij/
noun
a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.

right
/rīt/
noun: right; plural noun: rights; noun: the right; noun: Right; noun: the Right

a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way.

Not being interested is your perogative, for sure. I don't have a choice about being interested. I have friends and family on all sides of the discussion. but also, if you want to have any kind of impact in other's lives, you have to care about what they think. 

Conversations get moved forward when at least some are interested in understanding each other, rather than being content with the polarization. Also, I know that there are plenty of people not trying to understand where your side is coming from. 

Regarding privilege, who exactly is privileged in this discussion? Usually the the discussion of privilege has to do with the U.S. construction of race, before and during the country's conception, in order to create a caste system so that some could prosper on the backs of others. I don't understand how vaccination is part of that conversation. I'm willing to be wrong, though, if you can coach me up.

[michaeltex]

The dumb part of your statement, is this notion that anyone's vaccination status matters one bit. All people spread the virus the same; there is zero difference between the two groups of people, so taking a test or flashing a card that says you did is useless scientifically arrogant.

This is very disingenuous.


True, infected people spread the virus similarly regardless of vaccination status. The missing piece is that vaccinated people are MUCH less likely to get infected in the first place, much less at a virus load high enough to cause transmission. 

So taking a test or showing a vaccination status card is not arrogance, but proof of participation in protecting our American society.

Americans have a history of fragmentation around big issues, but sometimes a crisis brings everyone together for a while. The Spanish flu 100 years ago saw similar noise about masking and isolation, vaccine theory had not developed much yet. The late 1930s US public was very fractured about what was going on in Europe and the Pacific, with even some prominent supporters for Hitler (Lindberg, for example) until 12/7/41. The post-election reactions after 2000 were all over the place and left didn't want much to do with the right, until 9/11/2001.

Somehow a death toll of almost 700,000 Americans isn't enough of a big issue because it has been spread over about 20 months so it has become a sad event, but somehow short of a consolidating crisis.

[Moviemavguy]

This is very disingenuous.


True, infected people spread the virus similarly regardless of vaccination status. The missing piece is that vaccinated people are MUCH less likely to get infected in the first place, much less at a virus load high enough to cause transmission. 

So taking a test or showing a vaccination status card is not arrogance, but proof of participation in protecting our American society.

Americans have a history of fragmentation around big issues, but sometimes a crisis brings everyone together for a while. The Spanish flu 100 years ago saw similar noise about masking and isolation, vaccine theory had not developed much yet. The late 1930s US public was very fractured about what was going on in Europe and the Pacific, with even some prominent supporters for Hitler (Lindberg, for example) until 12/7/41. The post-election reactions after 2000 were all over the place and left didn't want much to do with the right, until 9/11/2001.

Somehow a death toll of almost 700,000 Americans isn't enough of a big issue because it has been spread over about 20 months so it has become a sad event, but somehow short of a consolidating crisis.

And remember when everyone wanted to get rid of Covid?  Now it's like a lot of these people don't even care anymore.  Just devolving into another pointless culture war while 2000 people die a day.  It's not only sad, but it's also truly embarrassing.  

But the only way to live with Covid is to be protected from it.  If it's around forever, then vaccination is really the only way forward.

[fifteenth]

The missing piece is that vaccinated people are MUCH less likely to get infected in the first place, much less at a virus load high enough to cause transmission. 

I've seen this on the CDC page. I'm trying to find legit studies for my own information and for conversations with family. Have you found studies on this? If so, can you provide a link?

[michaeltex]

I've seen this on the CDC page. I'm trying to find legit studies for my own information and for conversations with family. Have you found studies on this? If so, can you provide a link?

Not at my fingertips. 

But you have to be infected to spread the infection, correct? Otherwise, you are just physically moving the virus from point A to points B, C, D, etc. which is what hygiene and distancing are supposed to address and which no vaccine will affect (effect? English is confusing even for Americans). Anyway, if the vaccine keeps the infection rate much much lower than without the vaccine, then you cannot spread it because you aren't infected. Gets back to that "herd immunity" thing.

Vaccine effectiveness is out there at FDA, CDC, and more.

[fifteenth]

Anyway, if the vaccine keeps the infection rate much much lower than without the vaccine, then you cannot spread it because you aren't infected. 

Vaccine effectiveness is out there at FDA, CDC, and more.

Yeah, I get all that. I just haven't seen a study on how effective the vaccine is for the Detla variant. Couldn't find that through CDC. It might be there, just didn't find it.

But not trying to get you to do research for me. Just thought I'd see if you already knew of a study.

[Kammrath]

I've seen this on the CDC page. I'm trying to find legit studies for my own information and for conversations with family. Have you found studies on this? If so, can you provide a link?

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/...cines.html

A new CDC study provides strong evidence that mRNA COVID-19 vaccines are highly effective in preventing SARS-CoV-2 infections in real-world conditions among health care personnel, first responders, and other essential workers.  These groups are more likely than the general population to be exposed to the virus because of their occupations.

The study looked at the effectiveness of Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna mRNA vaccines in preventing SARS-CoV-2 infections among 3,950 study participants in six states over a 13-week period from December 14, 2020 to March 13, 2021.

Results showed that following the second dose of vaccine (the recommended number of doses), risk of infection was reduced by 90 percent two or more weeks after vaccination. Following a single dose of either vaccine, the participants’ risk of infection with SARS-CoV-2 was reduced by 80 percent two or more weeks after vaccination.

This is important because preventing both asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic infections among health care workers and other essential workers through vaccination can help prevent the spread of SARS-CoV-2 to those they care for or serve. Findings from this study complement earlier reports that these two mRNA COVID-19 vaccines can reduce both asymptomatic and symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections.

[fifteenth]

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/...cines.html

Thanks, Kam. I've actually read that. But does that apply to the Delta variant?

[Kammrath]

Thanks, Kam. I've actually read that. But does that apply to the Delta variant?

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/h...ta-variant

ESTIMATED EFFECTIVENESS OF PFIZER-BIONTECH VACCINE

Vaccine effectiveness was 87 to 96 percent for all outcomes before Delta, but now it’s 39 to 84 percent effective against infection and 75 to 95 percent effective against hospitalization.

ESTIMATED EFFECTIVENESS OF MODERNA COVID-19 VACCINE

Vaccine effectiveness was around 80 to 95 percent for all outcomes before Delta, but now it’s 50 to 72 percent effective against infection and over 80 percent effective against hospitalization.

[LifeAquatic]

Coronavirus infections three times lower in double vaccinated people - REACT | Imperial News | Imperial College London



The study’s analyses of PCR test results also suggest that fully vaccinated people may be less likely than unvaccinated people to pass the virus on to others, due to having a smaller viral load on average and therefore likely shedding less virus.



Still Unsure About Getting The COVID-19 Vaccine? Start Here. | FiveThirtyEight