2021-2022 ROSTER TALK: [ARCHIVED]

[Smitty]

[quote pid="127397" dateline="1644858215"]


I thought the convo was about the regular season - sorry if I missed something that indicated playoffs. 

All I meant by out of necessity is that there's no way any team wants to play their best player 38 minutes per game during the regular season. I assume they do it because they feel they have to in order to be competitive. 38 minutes is a lot. 

There's no question that rotations for every team get shortened and minutes for the top 5-7 go up in the playoffs. I totally agree. My guess is that ONE of the lower level guys from Kamm's outline gets less than what he suggested - either one of the new guys or, if all goes well with them, Green, probably.

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...when he plays at all. He has been almost completely out of the rotation until trash time over the past several weeks. The only reason he played recently against LAC is that Burke got hurt.
[/quote]

I kind of lumped it all together in my initial post, my rotation idea was more about competitive games, much like the last 5 have been and then going into the playoffs. Kamm posted strictly regular season rotations that I could agree with since the plan is to get the new guys acclimated and see who they work well with etc.

All good. 

[Not an evil robot]

Donnie was the "President of Basketball Operations" and so all basketball related things were supposed to go through him. Guys were going rogue under him. Did Cuban enable that? Absolutely (I have never suggested Cuban is without blame)...but Donnie seems to have failed pretty massively as a leader and president. Donnie was the hands-on, everyday leader of the Mavs organization. Cuban was doing a million other things, especially in recent years when this got really bad. 

And yes, for the record, I am the top person in the organization I work for and have been for the last 8.5 years. 

Knowing that Cuban was REALLY busy with other things in recent years (Cuban was different early on with DAL as he was much more focused and devoted to the Mavs as his "one thing") and that he had a "President of Basketball Operations" in place, Occam's Razor would suggest that the simplest explanation is that the president failed to lead while at the same time the owner failed to hold the president accountable (or empower the president adequately).

With the experience you mention, I’m honestly more confused by your take. The title of “President of Basketball Operations” means almost nothing outside the meat and potatoes of reporting structure and responsibilities. Voulgaris did not report to Nelson; if I recall correctly, Finley didn’t either. You can’t task Nelson with keeping others in line that have been explicitly placed outside his jurisdiction. He can’t keep anyone from “going rogue” when his boss has placed them outside his purview. In your organization, how much control do you have over other the head of other departments/organizations that don’t report to you?

Yes, I would buy that Nelson also wasn’t successful as a leader. But Cuban didn’t just “fail to hold him accountable”, Cuban organized the very system that created the chaos that was incredibly likely to fail. You sort of obliquely get to that when you say “or empower the president adequately”, but you’re burying the lede. There’s this undercurrent in your posts on the Mavs’ disfunction that Cuban is a secondary figure. He is not. Whether he’s the GM or wasn’t involved enough, he is the prime mover who set up the botched structure and had the power to make changes as he wished. Any analysis of Nelson (or Carlisle, Nico, Kidd) has to contend with his influence first and foremost.

Again, I’m drawing a distinction between the actual basketball decisions (which are probably still questionable) and things like multiple negotiators on trades, no clear authority on who makes draft picks, and a few other bits of things that have trickled out. Those aren’t signs of a bad strategy (e.g., Plan Powder) they’re fundamental management mistakes that erode confidence.

[Smitty]

I'll settle on this after taking into account the new guys getting more burn.

PG: Luka 36 / SD 12
SG: JB 32 / SD 12 / Green 4
SF: RB 34 / Green 10 / DFS 4
PF: DFS 30 / Bertans 18
C: DP 22 / Kleber 22 / Bertans 4



Luka 36 mpg
Brunson 32 mpg
RB 34 mpg
DFS 34 mpg
SD 24 mpg
DP 22 mpg
Maxi 22 mpg
Bertans 22 mpg
Green 14 mpg

[Kammrath]

@"Not an evil robot"

Here is a direct quote from Voulgaris on the 2020 draft (in a radio interview on October 21, 2021)....

I didn’t know I was going to be running the draft. I don’t think it was anyone’s plan for me to be running the draft. But when it came time to pick 18, the general manager of the team wasn’t around.

Donnie 100% bailed on the draft and "went up to his room, office, because his office was separate from everything." Donnie was SUPPOSED to run the draft. He had been given the authority by Mark. But he pouted about Voulgaris being involved as a voice at all and just walked away. This left Voulgaris to run the draft. He stepped into a leadership void left by Donnie. As opposed to leading in a difficult situation with someone that you don't like or is hard to work with, Donnie left. Donnie failed as a leader. 

Again, Cuban certainly had his part to play, but Cuban did not run the 2020 draft! Voulgaris did because Donnie walked away of his own choice.


Organization dynamics can be very complicated and fluid, but this was the nail in the coffin for my general and current understanding of how things were in recent years. 

If Cuban was the "GM" in truth, he would have been running the draft. But Donnie was clearly supposed to be doing that and then Voulgaris did (NOT Cuban).

[Jommybone]

I'll settle on this after taking into account the new guys getting more burn.

PG: Luka 36 / SD 12
SG: JB 32 / SD 12 / Green 4
SF: RB 34 / Green 10 / DFS 4
PF: DFS 30 / Bertans 18
C: DP 22 / Kleber 22 / Bertans 4



Luka 36 mpg
Brunson 32 mpg
RB 34 mpg
DFS 34 mpg
SD 24 mpg
DP 22 mpg
Maxi 22 mpg
Bertans 22 mpg
Green 14 mpg

New guys getting 5th and 8th most minutes? If this is right, I’m gonna have to change my tune about the crap return we got for Porzingis. At the moment, I’m expecting Bertans = Chriss and Dinwidde = Ntilikina.

[Smitty]

New guys getting 5th and 8th most minutes? If this is right, I’m gonna have to change my tune about the crap return we got for Porzingis. At the moment, I’m expecting Bertans = Chriss and Dinwidde = Ntilikina.

I think they will play, yes. The Mavs at the very least need them to play in order to increase their value, if nothing else.
Chriss and Frank are JAG's. The Mavs would be hurting themselves significantly if those two got more playing time than the two additions - with big contracts.

[Jommybone]

I think they will play, yes. The Mavs at the very least need them to play in order to increase their value, if nothing else.
Chriss and Frank are JAG's. The Mavs would be hurting themselves significantly if those two got more playing time than the two additions - with big contracts.

I’m sure I don’t know. But my guess would be

Luka 36
Jalen 36
Dorian 36
Reggie 36
Dwight 28
Maxi 28
Josh 20
Spencer 12
Davis 8

[KillerLeft]

 At the moment, I’m expecting Bertans = Chriss and Dinwidde = Ntilikina.

Ohhhh, definitely not. 

I think Kamm's idea is what they're hoping to achieve, and both players will be given a chance to get there. The reality might be different, and Bertans could end up playing Chriss minutes only. But I can almost guarantee that Dinwiddie will be on the court for fairly significant minutes during the playoffs if he's healthy, much more than Ntilikina would've played. Ntilikina wasn't going to be in the playoff rotation at all before the trade, imo. 

I'm not a fan of Dinwiddie's game, but he was one of their considered targets over the summer with cap that cap space. My guess is that if he had wanted to come here they would've chosen him over Hardaway, or signed and traded Hardaway for him, or something. They supposedly liked him then and I'm sure they really do like him now. 

It is undeniable that even in a down year, coming off of injury, Dinwiddie is the third best shot creator on this team. My question is about whether he can be a positive playing off ball with Luka/Brunson or if he'll look like Wright/Richardson did on offense. He creates much better than either of them, but the shooting (and by extension, spacing) might be just as bad or worse. I haven't watched him quite enough to speak confidently on this, but he's probably a lesser defender than either of those players, too. That's concerning, given that the defensive end is mostly responsible for this thing turning around a bit lately.

[Kammrath]

I’m sure I don’t know. But my guess would be

Luka 36
Jalen 36
Dorian 36
Reggie 36
Dwight 28
Maxi 28
Green 20
Spencer 12
Davis 8

A lot comes down to this: How much effective rotation burn will the new guys get/earn?

If you are right about minute distribution, then absolutely we should all be very sad about the return on the trade.

[Kammrath]

what they're hoping to achieve

Yeah, the Mavs will give SD and DB EVERY chance to earn a rotation spot. Their contracts DEMAND that. The Mavs need to rehab the value of their contracts in any way they can. 

In the playoffs I think the Mavs will play whatever gives them the best shot to win. But between now and then, the "salary hierachy" will determine a lot IMO.

[Smitty]

I’m sure I don’t know. But my guess would be

Luka 36
Jalen 36
Dorian 36
Reggie 36
Dwight 28
Maxi 28
Josh 20
Spencer 12
Davis 8

Your top 6 could very well be the minute allocation for the playoffs (adding ~6 mpg to Luka) and the bottom 3 will work itself out based on fit and matchup. None of us know for sure so there's no right or wrong answer. But for now, the next 25 games or so, I see the two new guys getting more burn than what you're thinking.

[KillerLeft]

Yeah, the Mavs will give SD and DB EVERY chance to earn a rotation spot. Their contracts DEMAND that. The Mavs need to rehab the value of their contracts in any way they can. 

In the playoffs I think the Mavs will play whatever gives them the best shot to win. But between now and then, the "salary hierachy" will determine a lot IMO.

Not to mention that in the pipe-dreamy scenario that I'm sure the Mavs are desperately hoping plays out wherein one or both of these guys starts playing much better fairly quickly (or even over some time), BOTH of them do offer something this team needed.

[Smitty]

Not to mention that in the pipe-dreamy scenario that I'm sure the Mavs are desperately hoping plays out wherein one or both of these guys starts playing much better fairly quickly (or even over some time), BOTH of them do offer something this team needed.

I agree, at their best they are perfect fits... Their numbers this year though... yikes. Fingers crossed that a culture change and player friendly coach and superstar bring out their best again.

[KillerLeft]

Your top 6 could very well be the minute allocation for the playoffs (adding ~6 mpg to Luka) and the bottom 3 will work itself out based on fit and matchup. None of us know for sure so there's no right or wrong answer. But for now, the next 25 games or so, I see the two new guys getting more burn than what you're thinking.

This is absolutely right. It's a wait and see thing, for sure. 

But I think the Mavs FO would be pretty disappointed if Dinwiddie isn't playing more minutes (way, way more) than Green come playoff time.

[ItsGoTime]

I agree, at their best they are perfect fits

Here's where I can't get with you guys discussing this. Their defense demands that the word perfect be stricken from anyone's vocabulary talking about these two players.

[KillerLeft]

Again, I'm no Dinwiddie fan. I want to keep stating that to make it clear. 

But, for context, 75% of this board would've preferred him last summer to Hardaway, and said so often. Basically, the Mavs just traded for a guy at Hardaway's level, only he's more of a creator and less of a shooter. 

Even in the worst case scenario that's a rotation player, just like Hardaway was here before the injury. 

Bertans, before the bubble injury, was a player that people around here used to claim was multiple levels better than DFS and Kleber. Comparing him to Kleber, specifically, I'd say it's objectively true that back then he was in a totally different class as a shooter, and I've seen footage from THIS YEAR where he was moving really quickly off of screens for lightning fast catch and shoot attempts (@"cow"'s bench argument video started with one, actually). It seems like the problem is that not enough of them are going in, and that's concerning, but Kleber can't do that stuff. It's just a fact. Now, don't get me wrong: I have not followed this player closely since he got hurt in the bubble, and he might be just as bad as everyone says.

[Smitty]

Here's where I can't get with you guys discussing this. Their defense demands that the word perfect be stricken from anyone's vocabulary talking about these two players.

Short of a healthy Kawhi Leonard walking into the building... perfect fits offensively, is what i mean.

[KillerLeft]

Here's where I can't get with you guys discussing this. Their defense demands that the word perfect be stricken from anyone's vocabulary talking about these two players.

Well, I agree with that, especially with the way the defense has improved this season. 

But (and I'm trying to help you feel better here, not trying to argue with you):

1) The offense this year is BAD and needs help. We all agree.

2) Kidd, the guy fixing the defense, had to have signed off on this. So we can reasonably assume he thought it was at least worth a try.

3) Harrison actually talked positively about Bertans' defense in his presser. I didn't feel it was spin. To be clear, he could easily be wrong, but I believe that he evaluated this as a factor and came to a different conclusion than what's being stated around here. I don't know what to expect, but I'm somewhat comforted that this was factored into the decision.

[ItsGoTime]

Short of a healthy Kawhi Leonard walking into the building... perfect fits offensively, is what i mean.

Sure, I'm just reading you guys constantly talking about offense and ignoring defense. There is a tradeoff with 1 way players that gets swept under the rug like it's nothing. However, we'll see soon enough one way or the other.

[Kammrath]

3) Harrison actually talked positively about Bertans' defense in his presser. I didn't feel it was spin. To be clear, he could easily be wrong, but I believe that he evaluated this as a factor and came to a different conclusion than what's being stated around here. I don't know what to expect, but I'm somewhat comforted that this was factored into the decision.

Bertans in his career has not been a big negative to his team's D. He generally breaks even. 

SD will be the issue on D from my seat because I don't think he is as good a team defender as DB, BUT he at least has a bigger body and decent wingspan (compared to someone like Kemba or JB). So the tools are there if he can be more locked in to his defensive job and rotations.