ARTICLES & PODS: ROSTER OVERHAUL NEEDED

[mavsluvr]

F Gump Wrote:  [url=https://www.mavsboard.com/showthread.php?pid=92069#pid92069][/url]

My take comes from what Nico himself is saying, not from trying to intuit what he might can do. He says he brings no particular skill in any of the areas we have talked about; he mentioned things like basketball talent evaluation, development, negotiating, roster planning, etc as not being skills he has - and that his past was about building relationships essentially, and nothing that really has to do with being an NBA GM.

Killer Left wrote:

I wasn't aware of any public speaking/interviews Harrison has done since getting this job. If he has said those things above, that IS interesting. Did I miss something important? Can you point me in the right direction?


I am not aware of Nico's having given a public statement. I have seen/heard various articles and podcasts detailing his various strengths, and areas where he needs to learn. These were all in the context of highly favorable outlooks on the hire, and were reportorial pieces. I believe these came from Cato, Dameris, and Sefko, among others. 

Some sources (which I don't think have any particular ties to the Mavs) say that Nico has experience in evaluating athletes for shoe contracts. The Mavs guys and some other sources downplayed that to an extent, saying that Nico does not see himself as a talent evaluator in the sense that a GM needs to be. 

These sources were mostly saying that Nico has a lot of transferable skills, but does not pretend to have done everything a GM does. They were saying that the places he still needs to grow are areas where he can lean on other front office personnel to help him get up to speed. For example, he has never engaged in drafting before, but Fin can run the draft. He is not a cap expert, but Keith Grant can handle that. 

They say that Nico has never constructed a roster, or developed a basketball program in the on-court sense, but Fin, the analytics guys, the coaching staff, and Cuban (!) have worked on this kind of thing for years. Also said that it is not clear that talent evaluation and roster construction is going to be a big part of Nico's duties at all. He has extensive experience in contract negotiating, and in building and maintaining relationships with players, and he enjoys a high degree of respect around the league. He appears to be in a position to add some elements to the job that the previous front office was short on, and to have support in the areas he hasn't done before. His primary responsibilities, at least at first, are likely to be matched to his existing skills. 

All that is just in response to your question. He's not a Masai Ujiri, but that of course doesn't mean that he is "clueless" or a "babe in the woods," just that he will be new to some aspects of the job. I have no doubt that he is a smart, quick, personable, high-character guy who is capable of either picking up the additional skills over time, or making good decisions on whom to rely. He may well be able to develop a vision and philosophy for the basketball side of the organization, especially after he has had some time to settle in and learn the ropes. But, since he's never done it before, of course there is no way to know for sure, and it might take a little time. 

I am sure you already knew most of this, but I offer it in part to further the discussion.

[Aussiebballer]

Judging by his previous coaching jobs Kidd seems to think he would make a great GM as well. so I am sure he will be happy to give Nico a lot of advice 

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

I'm not convinced he has really changed that, however. It's not like he's replaced Donnie and RC with guys who are known to have a better eye for talent, or understanding and plan for development. Nico is clueless, and a babe in the woods in such matters - and who is here to teach him? Cuban? There's no Riley or West or Ujiri or Pop/Buford here that's been doing this forever with excellence.

On the idea that Bob was the one who found Luka and got him to Dallas, that's just nonsense. Luka was Donnie's baby from back long before Bob was around; Luka clearly has no affinity for Bob; and Bob wasn't even hired by the Mavs until 4 months after Luka was drafted. Sounds like one of those made up stories by someone with an agenda to make Bob look good and others look bad, in the recent chaos, even if it takes pure fiction to do it (not saying you). Maybe someone wanted to try to save face for Bob since his foray into draft control seemed so sucky in 2020?

[Kammrath]

Bob wasn't even hired by the Mavs until 4 months after Luka was drafted. Sounds like one of those made up stories by someone with an agenda to make Bob look good and others look bad, in the recent chaos, even if it takes pure fiction to do it (not saying you). Maybe someone wanted to try to save face for Bob since his foray into draft control seemed so sucky in 2020?

I cannot for the life of me remember where I heard it, but it wasn't just a fan rumor. It was suggested that Voulgaris had been advising Cuban for awhile BEFORE he was ever hired. And Voulgaris was one of the voices that was in fact pushing Luka. 

As for the 2020 draft, I thought Voulgaris's choices sucked AT THE TIME of the draft (anyone can see my posts from draft night) because I disagreed with the evals on Green and Tyrell (but LOVED TBey). However, I have come to think Green was a GOOD pick after watching him in his limited minutes this year and think Tyrell (beyond his personal issues) has quite a bit of promise as well. I want to see all three of those guys this coming season before beginning to lay judgment on Voulgaris and his choices. Anyone with a brain knows he chose three of the rawest guys in the draft that would need time to live into their high potential.

[KillerLeft]

I cannot for the life of me remember where I heard it, but it wasn't just a fan rumor. It was suggested that Voulgaris had been advising Cuban for awhile BEFORE he was ever hired. And Voulgaris was one of the voices that was in fact pushing Luka. 

It was suggested by Bill Simmons.

[Kammrath]

It was suggested by Bill Simmons.

Yes, thank you for being my brain.

[TXBamanut]

I cannot for the life of me remember where I heard it, but it wasn't just a fan rumor. It was suggested that Voulgaris had been advising Cuban for awhile BEFORE he was ever hired. And Voulgaris was one of the voices that was in fact pushing Luka. 

As for the 2020 draft, I thought Voulgaris's choices sucked AT THE TIME of the draft (anyone can see my posts from draft night) because I disagreed with the evals on Green and Tyrell (but LOVED TBey). However, I have come to think Green was a GOOD pick after watching him in his limited minutes this year and think Tyrell (beyond his personal issues) has quite a bit of promise as well. I want to see all three of those guys this coming season before beginning to lay judgment on Voulgaris and his choices. Anyone with a brain knows he chose three of the rawest guys in the draft that would need time to live into their high potential.

I think that actually was McMahon or Cato or Amick on that flurry of pods they didm because I heard that also, and it was not a fan rumor.  It was an insider in a big time pod.

***EDIT:  Simmons....okay, but I dont listen to him and I heard it.  Maybe it was regurgitated from him by a pod host or something, but I would have said McMahon if I had to choose.

[Kammrath]

I think that actually was McMahon or Cato or Amick on that flurry of pods they didm because I heard that also, and it was not a fan rumor.  It was an insider in a big time pod.

***EDIT:  Simmons....okay, but I dont listen to him and I heard it.  Maybe it was regurgitated from him by a pod host or something, but I would have said McMahon if I had to choose.

Yeah, it could have been ANY of those guys too. MacMahon might have been my guess as well. I don't doubt Killer though that the info probably originated with Simmons, as he and Voulgaris are good buds.

[TXBamanut]

1). On the roster....look at the Bucks and Hawks.  Think about how many guys can get their own shot and score.   

Everyone thought Giannis would leave because the Bucks roster wasnt good enough, but freakin Portis doesnt play in the Brooklyn series, then comes in here and jams down 23 and 8.  If Luka was out, how many people could come in and drop 20?  Maxi?  Powell (last year, no?). Not many.

2). About the change from Carlisle:  One thing I haven't heard emphasized enough about this is the inconsistent rotations.  it was Rick's "be ready" random rotations...it was what everyone bragged on with their mad scientist tinkering comments, but....
a). Players didnt like it, so that makes you wonder about FAs choosing here and how much that effected them, even though some revived their career here. 
b). Some players go farther than that and they just cant perform well without structure.  So it makes you wonder about players we got, and how mich their underperforming was them sucking and how much was them just not able to deal with the lack of consistent rotation.

We might see changes on that alone.

[ClutchDirk]

Luka said he knew Donnie since he was a kid...

[Kammrath]

inconsistent rotations.  it was Rick's "be ready" random rotations

Yeah, I think this messed with a lot of guy's heads and hearts. One thing it did though was make abundantly clear to everyone WHO was in charge: RC.

[Kammrath]

Luka said he knew Donnie since he was a kid...

Did anyone claim otherwise?

[Jommybone]

Yeah, I think this messed with a lot of guy's heads and hearts. One thing it did though was make abundantly clear to everyone WHO was in charge: RC.

Did it though? The one thing that really concerned me in all the chaos of last month was hearing that Luka asked RC who was in charge.

[KillerLeft]

Did it though? The one thing that really concerned me in all the chaos of last month was hearing that Luka asked RC who was in charge.

According to the Cato/Amick article the complaint THIS year was that the rotations were TOO consistent. I believe the word they used was "rigid." They reported that certain players felt they weren't given a chance to earn time because of Voulgaris' influence over Carlisle. 

I think the conversation you jumped in on was about the general approach to rotations over the full course of Carlisle's tenure.

[F Gump]

Yeah, it could have been ANY of those guys too. MacMahon might have been my guess as well. I don't doubt Killer though that the info probably originated with Simmons, as he and Voulgaris are good buds.

So the story being told is that Bob wasn't a Mav employee, Donnie was The Mavs guy and had been heavily involved in Luka for years, but Bob from the outside was the one responsible for Luka becoming a Mav?

I'm really skeptical, as that sounds like the most extreme of BS-y claims for credit.

However, if someone does buy that story, they certainly can't believe that Cuban isn't Jerry Jones and then some. Not listening to your GM and his years of work, and then listening to a non-NBAer to persuade you. What a messed up way to evaluate players and make personnel decisions. Yikes.

OTOH if it's NOT true, then who's the one inventing stories to pump up Bob and try to take credit away from Donnie? Simmons? Or someone feeding nonsense to Simmons?

Either way, no way to believe Cuban is just an owner who's been doing normal ownerly things, and letting the Mav GMs' and others do their jobs and make the decisions that come with them.

And it leaves reason to wonder if, rather than Cuban having a grand plan to make front office changes, maybe nothing had ever been contemplated, and then Donnie responded to things being done and said in a way that forced Cuban into letting Donnie go, rather than reining in his freewheeling process.

[F Gump]

2). About the change from Carlisle:  One thing I haven't heard emphasized enough about this is the inconsistent rotations.  it was Rick's "be ready" random rotations...it was what everyone bragged on with their mad scientist tinkering comments, but....
a). Players didnt like it, so that makes you wonder about FAs choosing here and how much that effected them, even though some revived their career here. 
b). Some players go farther than that and they just cant perform well without structure.  So it makes you wonder about players we got, and how mich their underperforming was them sucking and how much was them just not able to deal with the lack of consistent rotation.

These are smart insights on RC's issues as a coach.

Carlisle's coaching approach was all about the ability to be flexible. As you note, most players prefer structure, and not knowing when you will play is tough.

I agree with your idea that players (particularly the non-stars) sign not only for the money, but also for the role and minutes, and the iffiness of RCs rotation and minutes would have been a negative in trying to sell players on Dallas. Unless you are willing to outbid everyone by a lot. That's not how you find bargains salary-wise. (But it wouldn't have been an issue with top talent they chased and failed to land.)

I think that also applies to his offense - the "flow" thing was all about everyone being able to figure it out on the fly. When everyone is on the same page, it is hard to handle, but it takes quite a while to get comfortable in knowing what to do and how to do it. Uncertainty in where to get shots, and what to do, can lead to subpar production, fewer minutes, or both. Structure in doing the same thing all the time so you do it well can make life easier and people more productive.

[Scott41theMavs]

So the story being told is that Bob wasn't a Mav employee, Donnie was The Mavs guy and had been heavily involved in Luka for years, but Bob from the outside was the one responsible for Luka becoming a Mav?

I'm really skeptical, as that sounds like the most extreme of BS-y claims for credit.

However, if someone does buy that story, they certainly can't believe that Cuban isn't Jerry Jones and then some. Not listening to your GM and his years of work, and then listening to a non-NBAer to persuade you. What a messed up way to evaluate players and make personnel decisions. Yikes.

OTOH if it's NOT true, then who's the one inventing stories to pump up Bob and try to take credit away from Donnie? Simmons? Or someone feeding nonsense to Simmons?

Either way, no way to believe Cuban is just an owner who's been doing normal ownerly things, and letting the Mav GMs' and others do their jobs and make the decisions that come with them.

And it leaves reason to wonder if, rather than Cuban having a grand plan to make front office changes, maybe nothing had ever been contemplated, and then Donnie responded to things being done and said in a way that forced Cuban into letting Donnie go, rather than reining in his freewheeling process.

I am scared poopless at the idea of Cuban feeding the press the idea that Bob was responsible for the Luka pick. If that's true, there's only one reason to do it: they're keeping Bob. 

https://media.giphy.com/media/27EhcDHnlkw1O/giphy.gif

[SkenfromLMF]

I am scared poopless at the idea of Cuban feeding the press the idea that Bob was responsible for the Luka pick. If that's true, there's only one reason to do it: they're keeping Bob. 

[Kammrath]

So the story being told is that Bob wasn't a Mav employee, Donnie was The Mavs guy and had been heavily involved in Luka for years, but Bob from the outside was the one responsible for Luka becoming a Mav?

So this was the impression I got (after synthesizing what I heard):

Voulgaris was NOT "responsible" for the pick....but he WAS in Cuban's ear about Luka, praising him effusively as the next big thing and that Cuban would regret passing on Luka if he did. Donnie also liked Luka and wanted him. Voulgaris being on the same page as Donnie about Luka helped Cuban pull the trigger and give up the extra 1st round pick (because all his advisors were saying the same thing). 

So the point wasn't that Donnie didn't like Luka, but that Voulgaris liking Luka so much helped 1) Cuban pull the trigger and 2) built Cuban's trust in Voulgaris as knowing what he was talking about (maybe even leading to his hire).

[dynamicalVoid]

About the Bob timeline and how long he has been around...

I also read on here that he was advising long before the 2018 hire...if that is true.

One of the things I found interesting in the Skin interview posted yesterday was that he said he has known Bob for 9 years.   Bob direct messages him during a game in 2012(?).   

So...Bob is in with Bill Simmons and been on his pod...Cuban claims he is really good friends with Bill on his pod...

I guess I am curious how long Bob has been around Cuban.   Why would Bob direct message a Mavs announcer during a game?   Does he message other announcer during games?  Or was he invested in the Mavs back in 2012 for some reason?

I dont know how many years ago Bob was on the Simmons pod.   Skin never mentioned why Bob was direct messaging him.

Skin also mentions that Bob's body of work is pretty extraordinary.   I am thinking you keep the extraordinary analytics guy around.