NEWS: RC out | Kidd hired as head coach & assembling staff

[KillerLeft]

So what was it now? A good move or a bad move?

Depends on who you ask. 

I HATED the move with a passion. Still do.

My point was that my opinion of the move didn't change based on who made it. I might be the biggest Carlisle fan here, but I promise you can find my post from that night about how much I hated this move, and about how it was pushing me closer to being a "fire Carlisle" guy.

[Time Machine Dirk]

Hating or not hating a move is one thing but assessing if a move was a good or a bad one is something different. Was the move effective in your perception? My impression was that we played good defense due to the twin towers in the middle of a zone defense. However, there is the possibility that the Mavs better play and good defense in game five just came about due to better effort...I don't know...
Somehow in game 6 the realization of the zone defense and Boban as well as KP seemed to be different. I don't know if the Clippers forced this due to better shooting...They seemed to lure Boban and/or KP to the corners and opened the driving lanes with this move.

[KillerLeft]

Was the move effective in your perception? My impression was that we played good defense due to the twin towers in the middle of a zone defense. However, there is the possibility that the Mavs better play and good defense in game five just came about due to better effort...I don't know...

Yeah, good questions. 

Here's how I think, right or wrong:

I think Boban is one of the worst defensive players in the NBA. Frankly, I don't think he should be in the NBA anymore, and wouldn't be if he wasn't such an amazing human being with such a magnetic personality.

I think zone is a great way of changing the pace when your defense is bad, causing the other team to temporarily second guess how to attack you. I don't believe it's a magic way to cure all defensive issues for an extended period. Not even a full game, let alone the last three games of a playoff series. Now, a GOOD defensive team can use zone to the same confusing effect and it becomes even more of a weapon. The example that comes to mind immediately is Miami from the bubble playoffs. THAT zone was CRAZY good. 

When it was announced that Boban would be starting, I lost myself to despair, because I viewed it (correctly, I still think) as the Mavs basically saying "well, it's clear we're not as good, so let's get weird with this." I freely admit that the super big zone confused the Clippers a bit in the first quarter of that first game (game 5, I think, but maybe it was game 6). But I STRONGLY disagree with those who believe that had Carlisle played that way MORE over the course of the rest of the series they would have advanced. I believe the utter futility of this tactic down the stretch of game 7 supports this opinion, but it IS only my opinion.

[mavsluvr]

The whole Mavs thing has become so complex that it´s hard to follow the threads. 

Amick is a very reliable source though. He´s not talking bs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYFw7FCaZq0 Here we go.

Highlights —


The fact that there was tension between Rick and Luka was widely known. Rick was very adaptable, stepped back a little, ceded some control,  but there were still issues. Then Nelson left over the Bob situation. Rick had also been adaptable wrt Voulgaris, which had to have been a tough pill to swallow. We’re  not talking about just hearing suggestions. Bob’s “suggestions” (for example, featuring Boban in the playoffs) weren’t just advice any more, but carried a feeling that if Rick didn’t follow them, Rick would have been on the wrong side of the picture. Rick is too good and too proud to be subjected to that. 

Cuban takes a lot of pride in being unconventional and out-of-the-box. Hiring a professional gambler was an example of that, and it was a big deal, considering the optics of gambling in the organization. There was a fairly serious process in 2018 where the league gave a green light to this hire. Mark’s mistake was that he didn’t understand how big a problem his other employees had with Bob, who was extensively disliked within the organization. The league may need to look at the situation again, in terms of introducing professional gamblers into the league structure.

[sterlingmallory]

Mark’s mistake was that he didn’t understand how big a problem his other employees had with Bob, who was extensively disliked within the organization.

Does Mark ever know what's going on inside his own organization? Does he ever know or care what his employees are thinking? Reading stuff like this is so infuriating. Between him "not knowing" about all the sexual harassment happening on the business side and now him "not knowing" how much people on the basketball side hate Bob is frankly pathetic. He needs to either pay attention to his organization, or step back and let a real professional run the day to day.  It sounds like working for him in an capacity would be awful to be quite frank. Funny how little a billionaire knows about running a successful business.

[KillerLeft]

He needs to either pay attention to his organization, or step back and let a real professional run the day to day.

[ItsGoTime]

The league may need to look at the situation again, in terms of introducing professional gamblers into the league structure.

They better do it fast before the league gets a team in Vegas too!

[Mavs32]

I don't get why people are hung up on Haralabob being a gambler.  Cuban didn't "hire a gambler".  Cuban hired one of the top analytic people in the world who had proprietary rights to a system he created that was so successful Vegas stopped accepting his bets.  Calling him "a gambler" is simply coloring your argument in a negative light towards him.  Clearly not everything he did worked and if you heard any of him on the BS podcast you could probably guess he wasn't the best people freindly personalities.
But lets give him a fair shake since the offense has been very good with his data collaborating with Luka and Rick.

[ItsGoTime]

Does Mark ever know what's going on inside his own organization? Does he ever know or care what his employees are thinking? Reading stuff like this is so infuriating. Between him "not knowing" about all the sexual harassment happening on the business side and now him "not knowing" how much people on the basketball side hate Bob is frankly pathetic. He needs to either pay attention to his organization, or step back and let a real professional run the day to day.  It sounds like working for him in an capacity would be awful to be quite frank. Funny how little a billionaire knows about running a successful business.

When the sexual harassment stuff broke, didn’t he actually say something to the effect that he knows what is going on on the basketball side, but ignored the business side? 


Man I really hope that guy is getting shook from all of this and comes out better. We could use some better Cuban!

[KillerLeft]

I don't get why people are hung up on Haralabob being a gambler.  Cuban didn't "hire a gambler".  Cuban hired one of the top analytic people in the world who had proprietary rights to a system he created that was so successful Vegas stopped accepting his bets.  Calling him "a gambler" is simply coloring your argument in a negative light towards him.  Clearly not everything he did worked and if you heard any of him on the BS podcast you could probably guess he wasn't the best people freindly personalities.
But lets give him a fair shake since the offense has been very good with his data collaborating with Luka and Rick.

The gambling aspect doesn't bother me a bit, although I do think it might raise some concerns that seem legit to others. 

I just hate the idea that a guy about whom the organization wasn't even transparent about being involved was SO involved that players believed he was setting rotations and multiple people in the organization were made so unhappy about him that a "power struggle" ensued. 

In a way, I would've felt better about this if Cuban had simply fired Donnie a couple of years back and made this guy the GM. To @"sterlingmallory"'s point, when Cuban isn't involved enough even to know how much this guy was despised, it seems like the "everyone is basically equal, and you'll have to trust me (Cuban) to take in all opinions and make the right call" approach is a very, very bad one. PUT SOMEONE IN CHARGE, ffs.

[Mavs2021]

Highlights —


The fact that there was tension between Rick and Luka was widely known. Rick was very adaptable, stepped back a little, ceded some control,  but there were still issues. Then Nelson left over the Bob situation. Rick had also been adaptable wrt Voulgaris, which had to have been a tough pill to swallow. We’re  not talking about just hearing suggestions. Bob’s “suggestions” (for example, featuring Boban in the playoffs) weren’t just advice any more, but carried a feeling that if Rick didn’t follow them, Rick would have been on the wrong side of the picture. Rick is too good and too proud to be subjected to that. 

Cuban takes a lot of pride in being unconventional and out-of-the-box. Hiring a professional gambler was an example of that, and it was a big deal, considering the optics of gambling in the organization. There was a fairly serious process in 2018 where the league gave a green light to this hire. Mark’s mistake was that he didn’t understand how big a problem his other employees had with Bob, who was extensively disliked within the organization. The league may need to look at the situation again, in terms of introducing professional gamblers into the league structure.

Was Gerson Rosas a professional gambler, too?

This obviously has everything to do with Nelson/Carlisle doing whatever they want on the basketball side and always getting pissy, when somebody from the outside was gaining any power. Given that they were here for 13 and 24 years respectively, obviously the whole structure of the organization is full of "their people".

Ultimately it´s all on Cuban for his failure to establish a clear hierarchy within the organization, who reports to whom and who has the decision-making power, but Nelson/Carlisle are no innocent victims. 

It´s crazy how eerily similar this now all appears to the business side failure. This might actually be Cuban best defense for the sexual harrassment  scandal yet. He looks completely unaware what´s going on in his own franchise, while the people he installed at the top of each food chain (business/basketball) abused his trust, lack of awareness (or worse) and the miss of proper checks and balances to run their own shop within the franchise as they saw fit.

[KillerLeft]

Was Gerson Rosas a professional gambler, too?

This obviously has everything to do with Nelson/Carlisle doing whatever they want on the basketball side and always getting pissy, when somebody from the outside was gaining any power. Given that they were here for 13 and 24 years respectively, obviously the whole structure of the organization is full of "their people".

Ultimately it´s all on Cuban for his failure to establish a clear hierarchy within the organization, who reports to whom and who has the decision-making power, but Nelson/Carlisle are no innocent victims. 

It´s crazy how eerily similar this now all appears to the business side failure. This might actually be Cuban best defense for the sexual harrassment  scandal yet. He looks completely unaware what´s going on in his own franchise, while the people he installed at the top of each food chain (business/basketball) abused his trust, lack of awareness (or worse) and the miss of proper checks and balances to run their own shop within the franchise as they saw fit.

There are some fair points made here.

[SleepingHero]

I totally forgot about Rosas. 

Seems like this front office has been dysfunctional for a LONG time.

[Mavs2021]

I totally forgot about Rosas. 

Seems like this front office has been dysfunctional for a LONG time.

It´s crazy that this happened in 2013!!!  I´d have guessed maybe 2016-ish.

[mavsluvr]

Does Mark ever know what's going on inside his own organization? Does he ever know or care what his employees are thinking? Reading stuff like this is so infuriating. Between him "not knowing" about all the sexual harassment happening on the business side and now him "not knowing" how much people on the basketball side hate Bob is frankly pathetic. He needs to either pay attention to his organization, or step back and let a real professional run the day to day.  It sounds like working for him in an capacity would be awful to be quite frank. Funny how little a billionaire knows about running a successful business.

I think this has been a problem for a long time. As Mark has focused his attention on other businesses and parts of his life, he is no longer attending to the Mavs on a day-to-day basis. When he clings to the power to make granular decisions, without devoting a concomitant degree of attention to what is going on, mistakes are inevitably made. 

I think an example was involved in the sexual harassment matter. One specific issue was an employee who was performing inappropriate acts at his desk in the front of the room, and the other employees complained. His solution was to move the guy's desk to the back of the room. His idea was that the problem was solved, because the other employees would no longer have to watch, failing to realize that the other employees would interpret that decision as supporting the inappropriate behavior, and not being familiar enough with his own shop's culture to understand the bigger picture and not view the issue as an isolated incident appropriate for the application of a quick Band-Aid. 

Mark's skills also seem to be mostly entrepreneurial -- being on the lookout for ideas other people might not have thought of, making quick decisions, being nimble, leading a small devoted coterie of people on a steep ascent to the top, etc.. Few entrepreneurs also have the skills to lead a large established organization, which depends more on process, development and maintenance of a culture, and long-term sustainability, as opposed to patchwork, jerry-rigged solutions of problems that arise. 

Many entrepreneurs also are also extremely self-confident, sometimes self-destructively so, and have a driving need for recognition of their genius and "specialness." 

It all adds up. Allowing a guy with no experience in running an organization of this sort to come in and take over large parts of the GM and coaching roles in accordance with wanting to lead in unconventional ways, turning his head and not seeing the issues, then terming and probably believing the description of what was going on as "total bullshit" just before the roof started caving in.

I think he is a smart, successful guy, but that having a business whose needs at this point do not match up super well to his strengths, together with not paying very close attention, yet retaining control over decisions, has been a recipe for chaos and dysfunction.

[KillerLeft]

I think he is a smart, successful guy, but that having a business whose needs at this point do not match up super well to his strengths, together with not paying very close attention, yet retaining control over decisions, has been a recipe for chaos and dysfunction.

[dirkfansince1998]

It's funny because a lot of fans called Carlisle a genius for using Boban. Was every good Carlisle game due to Voulgaris? Or only the bad ones?

Good question. But the reverse makes just as much sense. Is Voulgaris responsible for some of RCs bad decisions
What matters is that RC was the head coach. No matter how bad of a coach he potentially was in your eyes the head coach should have the final say when it comes to on court decisions, rotations and schemes. I think @"KillerLeft"  already explained the problem (no accountability). What we have now is even worse than a simple bad coach/GM situation.
It is a mess. Cannot really identify the weak spot. We have to doubt every single move and decision of the last three (more likely 5-6, Fegan/Parson) years.

[Dova]

Any educated guesses on how long until the Mavs hire a GM?

All but 4 teams are out of the playoffs, so im hoping soon

[Scott41theMavs]

Any educated guesses on how long until the Mavs hire a GM?

All but 4 teams are out of the playoffs, so im hoping soon

Welcome to the board. I give them until Wednesday. If it stretches past that, I'll officially be pissed.

[KillerLeft]

Any educated guesses on how long until the Mavs hire a GM?

All but 4 teams are out of the playoffs, so im hoping soon

Welcome, Dova. 

My Debbie Downer prediction: Their GM is already in place. He bought the team just before the turn of the century. No idea when they will figure out who they will pay next to pretend they are the GM.