NEWS: RC out | Kidd hired as head coach & assembling staff

[KillerLeft]

@"Scott41theMavs" PS: my favorite thing about this whole past two weeks was finding out the great Coach Carlisle wasn't going to be working in Milwaukee. That was a depressing possibility I was really, really dreading.

[Scott41theMavs]

 
I'm abstaining, remember? My days of running down the Gaza Strip are over. 

Suffice it to say, nothing I've read this week has changed my opinion of him in the slightest. Some things that shock other people about Carlisle are the equivalent to me of how you feel about people being shocked that Cuban makes decisions for the team he owns.

So you were both 1) unsurprised at and 2) content with reports that the gargantuan majority of the Mavs' staff considered him an insufferable asshole. 

Got it. 

To me, it's pretty unreasonable for someone as a Carlisle stan to be unaffected by those reports, unless 1) that person is simply a "Rick-only fan" like Markus was our "Dirk-only fan," or 2) they're just assuming that Cuban handed bundles of Benjamins to the staff members to tell the press those things.

[mavsluvr]

I think the mental block is bc I don’t see the two outcomes as mutually exclusive. 

Someone being recommended meaning someone else is slighted. 

I think of ‘slighted’ as meaning the definition ‘insulted’, in a direct way. 

For me to wrap my head around what’s being said is that an insult can mean anything someone finds offensive and thus a slight can be indirect as long as someone finds it offensive.

Maybe we're just talking semantics. 

I think of "slight" as treating someone as not important, as if they don't matter, as not giving them the respect they deserve. It seemed like his comment was the essence of that. 

It also seemed like a conscious effort to undermine his own assistant's quest for a job. 

I think it was intentional, given Carlisle's propensity to consider his words, but I will allow for the possibility that a slight is in the mind of the beholder.

[Scott41theMavs]

KL, for the record, I believe RC is one of the five best X's-and-O's coaches in the NBA right now (vs. someone like Barlettbear, for whom the gross majority of his critiques of Rick were over those issues). I also believe that he's as poor at player development and being a player's coach as Rivers is at the X's-and-O's, so it balances out.

[DallasBasketball]

Maybe we're just talking semantics. 

I think of "slight" as treating someone as not important, as if they don't matter, as not giving them the respect they deserve. It seemed like his comment was the essence of that. 

It also seemed like a conscious effort to undermine his own assistant's quest for a job. 

I think it was intentional, given Carlisle's propensity to consider his words, but I will allow for the possibility that a slight is in the mind of the beholder.

Not to continue this thread within the thread any longer than needed, but your definition also makes complete sense. I’d probably buy in if I just didn’t have rose colored glasses related to Carlisle. 

I told my buddy when he was hired he would be the last coach the Mavs hired. (I didn’t mean that literally) but I thought he would be here a LONG time is all. And I was still surprised to see him go. But I am not surprised by all these stories of him being a curmudgeon. I think that was pretty clear the entirety of his time here.

[mavsluvr]

Not to continue this thread within the thread any longer than needed, but your definition also makes complete sense. I’d probably buy in if I just didn’t have rose colored glasses related to Carlisle. 

I told my buddy when he was hired he would be the last coach the Mavs hired. (I didn’t mean that literally) but I thought he would be here a LONG time is all. And I was still surprised to see him go. But I am not surprised by all these stories of him being a curmudgeon. I think that was pretty clear the entirety of his time here.

And you were right! I think he was the third longest-tenured coach in the league, essentially tied with second-place Spoelstra. I believe the median tenure for an NBA coach is like three seasons.

[KillerLeft]

KL, for the record, I believe RC is one of the five best X's-and-O's coaches in the NBA right now (vs. someone like Barlettbear, for whom the gross majority of his critiques of Rick were over those issues). I also believe that he's as poor at player development and being a player's coach as Rivers is at the X's-and-O's, so it balances out.

There's no reason to engage on this. I have moved past caring whether or not people agree with me on this, particular topic. I have realized that my professional experiences have put me in a specific head space to appreciate things about Carlisle that other people might not value as much, while simultaneously leaving me desensitized to other things about him that some find repulsive, apparently. 

But, I'll try to close out my lifespan on this topic as clearly as possible. 

For starters, I think the post you wrote before this one is inaccurate. I just don't interpret the "reports" we've read the same way you do, and think you've hyperbolized the conclusion to a hysterical level. However, this is irrelevant to me, even if you're absolutely spot on. 

When I look at Carlisle, I just see someone who's better at understanding basketball than other people, knows it, worked hard to become that way and sometimes forgets to be nice to the people while he gets down on their level to explain things he shouldn't have to explain. Literally every single great person in my field is the exact, same way, including those who taught me and made me who I am today. I have spent my entire professional life admiring people like Carlisle and aspiring to be more like them every day. It's not that being short with people is the goal, it's that the actual goals become so important to you that you forget to care how you are coming across, socially. I have students who hate me at first, even some who quit, but those who fight through to the end of the journey usually thank me down the road for the incredible gifts I give them, kind of like you hear about Carlisle from guys like Jalen Rose, Tyson Chandler, Ron Artest, etc.

When a group of people make sacrifices to become a team, well...that means different things to different people. Someone has to be the person for whom NOTHING else matters. Someone who will literally stop at nothing to help the group of people reach a standard that gives them a chance at competitive success. This is a hard, hard life, and it requires a certain type of person.

There's enough smoke about Carlisle's personality rubbing some the wrong way for me to concede that some people don't like him. From my seat, the biggest sin the head coach of a professional basketball team could make is not saying/doing everything they know how to say/do in order to win because they're worried about people not liking them. Some might be able to do the job at an elite level without pissing people off, but to me, the only WRONG thing you can do is lower your standards to avoid conflict. That's a SIN, in a life like this. People are trusting you to prepare them to WIN. 

You guys all say he's not a great man - I won't argue anymore. But, Rick Carlisle has never pled guilty to domestic violence (go read that report - it's out there). He has never been charged with a DUI. After BOTH of Kidd's first two stops as a Head Coach, the wreckage left in his wake as far as people not liking him was drastically worse than anything we read about Carlisle's tenure this week. This divorce has been one of the better, more professional ones you'll ever see in pro sports, imo, (credit to Cuban for that, too) with the exception of that "they should hire Kidd" stuff, which I admit was super weird. 

Speaking of that incident specifically, I have no idea how to interpret it. I have ideas, but don't know. Maybe it something negotiated between he and Cuban. Maybe it was just him trying to support Kidd. Maybe it was a reverse psychological jab at Luka, setting the bar as high as possible. Maybe it was throwing Mosley under the bus. I have no clue, and it doesn't sound like ANYONE does, really. It's very possible that this was a dick move. 

But I'll say this: in my professional past, when people have moved against me, I've done worse. MUCH worse. I play to win, and I don't feel sorry for people who intentionally get in my way. So, if that's what Carlisle did there (which is far from clear, imo), I won't say it's my favorite thing about him, but I also can't say I don't understand it. 

The thing that I think is VERY reasonable to hold against Carlisle is the record since 2011...only, I have a very low opinion of the team building during that stretch. Like Donnie, IF the losing wasn't Carlisle's fault, I think it's reasonable to fault him for accepting the situation by staying here for so long. He could've gotten another job at any time, after all. I have a feeling the wish to provide stability for his daughter during her formative years might've been a pretty big factor, but having forgone anything resembling family life myself, I struggle to relate to that thinking, even if I'm aware of its import to other people. 

In a way, the fact that Carlisle, with two years of guaranteed money left and the NBA's best young player (who everyone agrees had not asked for him to be fired) decided to end things here on his own terms and go to a situation where he thinks he can make more of a contribution makes me respect him MORE (though as a Mavs fan I had a couple of rough days dealing with him quitting on my team). I think he legitimately believes that this move is better for everyone involved. He manned up and did it. 

Like I said. At this point, it's clear that the majority of people here aren't going to get where I'm coming from with this. I have made my peace with that. I probably shouldn't have responded to Kamm's post.

[fifteenth]

@"KillerLeft", thanks for that post.  You didn't have to let us in on that, but I'm really glad you did.

[Scott41theMavs]

Fair enough. Agree to disagree, very much so on the interpretation of the reports. "Hysterical" literally means you think I'm behaving like a crazy woman. Ouch, not because that shoe fits, but because it doesn't.

[MFFL]

 
I'm abstaining, remember? My days of running down the Gaza Strip are over. 

Suffice it to say, nothing I've read this week has changed my opinion of him in the slightest. Some things that shock other people about Carlisle are the equivalent to me of how you feel about people being shocked that Cuban makes decisions for the team he owns.

I would have thought you would have taken offense at RC for doing a Harden move and quitting on the team

RC had a contract and he forced his way out - you seemed upset at Harden doing the same

[mavsluvr]

FWIW, Kidd said the thing he most regretted about his HC experience was that he was too hard on his players. Said all he cared about was winning, and he was too rough on guys in pursuit of that objective. Wished he had stopped here and there and let them have a little fun.

[KillerLeft]

I would have thought you would have taken offense at RC for doing a Harden move and quitting on the team

RC had a contract and he forced his way out - you seemed upset at Harden doing the same

Covered this is in my un-proofed novel on the last page. I did get mad about him quitting, and it's one of the many feels I have weathered this week. 

At the end of the day, however we got there, it seems we all agree (even Carlisle, even Cuban) that it was time.

[KillerLeft]

FWIW, Kidd said the thing he most regretted about his HC experience was that he was too hard on his players. Said all he cared about was winning, and he was too rough on guys in pursuit of that objective. Wished he had stopped here and there and let them have a little fun.

Yeah, I don't want to predict doom and gloom here. I REALLY want this new front office and coach to do AMAZING work. I'm sick of the Mavs not being good enough, just like everyone else. 

But, Kidd has NOT been a player-friendly guy at his first two stops. I understand that some of the bigger names around the league are effusive with praise and support, and that's GREAT,  but his last two locker rooms really didn't like him by the end, and both were short stints. This guy is not "the opposite of Carlise" in the player relations department, at least not so far. 

Just google "Jason Kidd locker room" and trust me, you'll find some stuff that worries you. 

I'm hopeful that he can relate to Luka on a savant-to-savant level, and I am 100% going to give the dude a chance to win me over. And, I'm 100% happy that they didn't give Mosley the job, for some reason I'm not sure I fully understand, myself.

[mavsluvr]

Like I said. At this point, it's clear that the majority of people here aren't going to get where I'm coming from with this. I have made my peace with that. I probably shouldn't have responded to Kamm's post

I don't think your position is especially hard to understand. Thanks for spelling it out. 


Out of all the reports that have come out after Rick left, none that I have seen have questioned his X's and O's ability. In fact, some have specifically said that no one on the team questioned his greatness in that regard. 

Even the best people have an Achilles heel of some sort, and maybe willingness to hurt people in the service of trying to win was both Carlisle's strength and his weakness. To the extent it was his weakness, he may have ended up paying heavily for it, and it might turn out to have been a valuable lesson learned. 

I expect him to finish his coaching career strong.

[mavsluvr]

Yeah, I don't want to predict doom and gloom here. I REALLY want this new front office and coach to do AMAZING work. I'm sick of the Mavs not being good enough, just like everyone else. 

But, Kidd has NOT been a player-friendly guy at his first two stops. I understand that some of the bigger names around the league are effusive with praise and support, and that's GREAT,  but his last two locker rooms really didn't like him by the end, and both were short stints. This guy is not "the opposite of Carlise" in the player relations department, at least not so far. 

Just google "Jason Kidd locker room" and trust me, you'll find some stuff that worries you. 

I'm hopeful that he can relate to Luka on a savant-to-savant level, and I am 100% going to give the dude a chance to win me over. And, I'm 100% happy that they didn't give Mosley the job, for some reason I'm not sure I fully understand, myself.

Yes, I believe his alienating the players at his first two stops was at least allegedly the source of his regrets. 

He certainly doesn't have a teddy bear image. In fact, he had a reputation of being demanding and rigid. Maybe he has had to dial it back a little to achieve a desire to be regarded as a player-friendly coach. 

I'm not a fan of the guy, myself. Just trying to contribute whatever info seems relevant. And maybe subconsciously trying to note that there are in fact limits to how productive it is to be horrible to people in the service of winning before it begins to backfire on you. You describe yourself in that mode, but I take it you're not talking about Tonya Harding type stuff.

[Silent Mav]

Covered this is in my un-proofed novel on the last page. I did get mad about him quitting, and it's one of the many feels I have weathered this week. 

At the end of the day, however we got there, it seems we all agree (even Carlisle, even Cuban) that it was time.

Need a hug big guy?

[KillerLeft]

but I take it you're not talking about Tonya Harding type stuff.

Not sure...never been pushed that far in a situation with stakes that high. I would like to think not.

---

Need a hug big guy?

I wouldn't say no. You seemed like a very huggable guy when we met.

[F Gump]

I trust you on the tampering thing but why do you see it as tampering and ....

I was also struck by the bizarre comment that Carlisle offering his opinion on the next Mav coach constituted "tampering" according to NBA rules. That's just factually wrong.

Tampering pertains to something said or done that may be seen as trying to entice a player or coach under contract to work for your team. Did he? No. I'm not not sure Kidd was under contract at that point, but we can be certain RC definitely did not work for the Mavs. So he was free to offer his own educated opinion on the Mavs choices, because he was not speaking for Dallas. If the Mavs didn't like it, tough beans, get over it.

"Not minding your own business" can be highly annoying to other teams, but it's not necessarily tampering.

Did reporters want to know his thinking about the chaos in Dallas, and did it make a story of interest? Yes. Was it none of his business to give a comment, and should he have just kept his thoughts to himself, like he did so many times with the Mavs? Maybe. Was it a bit of poor form for him to maybe try to sway the decisions of an organization that he had just ditched? Perhaps. But it definitely wasn't tampering.

[Mapka]

I would have thought you would have taken offense at RC for doing a Harden move and quitting on the team

RC had a contract and he forced his way out - you seemed upset at Harden doing the same

I wouldn't fully dismiss this, but Harden was pulling this thing in the media for weeks, didn't do his job, was a stinky dramaqueen. RC talked to his boss behind closed doors and got the permission to leave.

[SleepingHero]

Like I said. At this point, it's clear that the majority of people here aren't going to get where I'm coming from with this. I have made my peace with that. I probably shouldn't have responded to Kamm's post.

KL just an aside can I ask you a quick hypothetical related to this?

In the highly unlikely probability RC wakes up tomorrow and decides to go to Dirk's house and takes a massive dump on his lawn while his kids are watching whilst wearing a DWade jersey screaming "06 Best Ring" and then goes to a tattoo parlor and gets Champ and Harlabob tatted on his ass giving the middle finger to the entire 2011 team

would that change your opinion on RC? 

Would it take all 3 actions to change it? Just one? Trying to figure out how sturdy your RC love is (Which I am certainly not attacking even if I disagree with some of your takes but definitely not bringing up because you want to be done with this).