NEWS: RC out | Kidd hired as head coach & assembling staff

[Hogmelon]

[Jommybone]

Lots of things I read that I am dubious of. If that has annoyed you, I’m sorry.

[Kammrath]

You guess Forde was working behind the scenes for weeks.

The reason I guess this:

Have you ever had to fire someone? In my experience (and it SUCKS) this generally doesn't happen overnight unless you have an outright scandal where the law is broken. From the boss's perspective, the timeline leading up to someone being fired is a slow and painful process, where you as the boss have seen the possibility for months and even years in advance. When the time comes to fire, there is no surprise and you have LONG had your mind on "what is next" and "who can replace this person?"  

So I put myself in Cuban's shoes and think about ALL that he has witnessed from Donnie (things going back to June 30, 2019 when the Miami trade fell apart in EMBARRASSING fashion). It is hard for me to imagine that Cuban didn't know for a LONG time that Donnie might need to go. And I find it impossible to believe that June 10 was the day he knew. 

Is there a possibility that June 10 was the day? Yes, but from my seat the only way that makes sense is if Donnie literally tried some sort of coup to take power within the organization. I think that is the only way that a firing of Donnie "caught Cuban by surprise." And if that is the case then I am very certain we will never see Donnie employed in the NBA again.

[dynamicalVoid]

Not at all. They were signed to NBA contracts and developed almost entirely on the NBA team. Did either even go to Frisco to play?

In my questions, I'm looking at The Legends and the Mavs' ability (or lack of same) to get anything significant from that tie. They were actually early to the game in setting up their own DL/GL franchise. But while other NBA teams seem to have turned such a tie into a minor league that feeds their roster, with undrafted guys and 2-way guys, the Mavs don't, from what I have seen.

I see that as a problem. I wonder why. I am pondering what these changes do to fix that (if anything). I ask.

Maybe this isnt a response you are looking for or care about.  If it adds no value...I apologize in advance.

But does the Mavs MBT(maybe former MBT at this point) ideology about young players and winning in the NBA conflict with developing youngsters?   To clarify...I have read on this board many times that Rick didnt like rooks because most of them commit too many rook mistakes and also turn the ball over.  That stance by Rick, if true, seems to reflect a disinterest in developing average players.  Thats Rick, though.   I have also read on here many times people suggest that its common knowledge in NBA that you cant win with youngsters(or something about winning with the draft - anyway its negative about youngsters and building through the draft)...and I believe posters on here agree with this and want Mark and the MBT to also believe in that.   I cant prove that.   

If the thinking is "its all about finding 4+ year vets" with the MBT...do they want to exert much energy/time into developing what most likely will be an average player?  Or just go get a proven player?

I dont have an answer for anyone if they respond with "Then why do they have a G-League team?"

[F Gump]

But does the Mavs MBT (maybe former MBT at this point) ideology about young players and winning in the NBA conflict with developing youngsters?   To clarify...I have read on this board many times that Rick didnt like rooks because most of them commit too many rook mistakes and also turn the ball over.  That stance by Rick, if true, seems to reflect a disinterest in developing average players.  Thats Rick, though.   I have also read on here many times people suggest that its common knowledge in NBA that you cant win with youngsters (or something about winning with the draft - anyway its negative about youngsters and building through the draft)...and I believe posters on here agree with this and want Mark and the MBT to also believe in that.   I cant prove that.   

If the thinking is "its all about finding 4+ year vets" with the MBT...do they want to exert much energy/time into developing what most likely will be an average player?  Or just go get a proven player?

I dont have an answer for anyone if they respond with "Then why do they have a G-League team?"

"does the Mavs MBT (maybe former MBT at this point) ideology about young players and winning in the NBA conflict with developing youngsters? "

1 This is a very reasonable idea, that for the most part, they just don't think developing GL players into NBA players is important.
2 If that's it, and if it permeates throughout every level, then it's not that they don't want to develop players, but rather that they think there's a better way to amass talent.
3 As a side note, if what you theorize is true, then wouldn't it have some relation to their miserable draft results over the years, especially when drafting outside the top 10 - ie, they don't want to spend the time and resources there.
4 If this is the how and why, it has to be the philosophy of someone at or near the top of the food chain. But some of that has top level has now been changed.

So if you think this has been the cause for the Legends inability to help the Mavs, then with these leadership changes, do you think
a) it's been a problem but has now been fixed,
b) it's been a problem but these changes didn't fix or improve anything, or
c) it has not been changed but it was the right approach all along, and doesn't need fixing.

[jesusshuttlesworth82]

LOL 

https://youtu.be/fwSRpOq6Psg?t=697

[dynamicalVoid]

"does the Mavs MBT (maybe former MBT at this point) ideology about young players and winning in the NBA conflict with developing youngsters? "

1 This is a very reasonable idea, that for the most part, they just don't think developing GL players into NBA players is important.
2 If that's it, and if it permeates throughout every level, then it's not that they don't want to develop players, but rather that they think there's a better way to amass talent.
3 As a side note, if what you theorize is true, then wouldn't it have some relation to their miserable draft results over the years, especially when drafting outside the top 10 - ie, they don't want to spend the time and resources there.
4 If this is the how and why, it has to be the philosophy of someone at or near the top of the food chain. But some of that has top level has now been changed.

So if you think this has been the cause for the Legends inability to help the Mavs, then with these leadership changes, do you think
a) it's been a problem but has now been fixed,
b) it's been a problem but these changes didn't fix or improve anything, or
c) it has not been changed but it was the right approach all along, and doesn't need fixing.

a) From what I read, Nico is the go to guy at Nike.   He is all about finding talent...probably as early as middle school...he should know some basketball players that people are talking about/he personally has gone and watched play.   I would assume he knows of undrafted talent to bring to our G-League team or that he talks to players that know of good players that have for whatever reason not been offered G-League contracts.  Not educated enough to know if its been a problem and no clue if its been fixed.

b) How can we tell if new guys have fixed anything?  Not enough time has passed.

c) I read this board to try and learn.  I have no clue if the "all about vets" ideology is the right one for a contender...or lottery team.   I understand the contender argument...but I dont know if trading all draft assets for vets when contending is the right path or not.  It certainly makes sense...but can it backfire?  And if so...how far back can it put a franchise?  I dont know if its been changed or not, if it was the right approach or if it needs fixing...Im not an insider with enough information.   The contender argument is pretty strong...along with trading non-lottery picks for proven talent.   But...how far back can it set a franchise?  Or a franchise that cant get free agents?

I asked in a previous thread about if the ball club leans too much on analytics.(I am not anti-analytics by any means)   As in...do we chase numbers and percentages too heavily?  I think our players have some serious flaws other than Luka.   Pretty much every team I watch has guys that can dribble the ball/create for them selves...we lack this.   Were we looking at numbers first instead of seeing if they are basketball players first?   Should we chase basketball players that also check all the numbers boxes?   IMO,  you cant have a bunch of non-offensive players...players that cant play basketball other than shoot.   Is the ideology flawed?

Maybe we need to find basketball players with good numbers and develop players in some capacity.


To answer your question:

I dont know what to think.  I have no clue what they are doing.

[mavsluvr]

This is what I’m thinking. The train immediately left the station on Carlisle ‘meant something nefarious’ by recommending Kidd to coach Luka. 

But I don’t think it has to be that way. I think it’s possible he’s a good actor and not a bad actor and feels some residual ownership in the Mavs having been here for 13 seasons and being such a big part of the franchise history. 

I could be inclined to believe that his subconscious acted against Mosley while consciously trying to help the team and recommend Kidd, and it was his ego that later revealed it in the Indiana press conference.

I think that Carlisle knew his remarks constituted tampering, as a technical matter, and were inherently inappropriate. I'm sure he also knew he would get away with it. I was pretty shocked when I heard them. 

The fact that a by-the-books guy like that would violate a rule and implicitly throw his assistant under the bus is worthy of mentioning. Perhaps, as you mention, it derived from a subconscious impulse, but it also seems like he would have made the remark consciously. When I thought about it, my first reaction was to think maybe he made a deal with Cuban to say it, as part of the contract termination negotiations. But maybe he was just that petty.

[Kammrath]

When I thought about it, my first reaction was to think maybe he made a deal with Cuban to say it, as part of the contract termination negotiations.

Now that is a thought I have not had. Interesting.

[DallasBasketball]

I think that Carlisle knew his remarks constituted tampering, as a technical matter, and were inherently inappropriate. I'm sure he also knew he would get away with it. I was pretty shocked when I heard them. 

The fact that a by-the-books guy like that would violate a rule and implicitly throw his assistant under the bus is worthy of mentioning. Perhaps, as you mention, it derived from a subconscious impulse, but it also seems like he would have made the remark consciously. When I thought about it, my first reaction was to think maybe he made a deal with Cuban to say it, as part of the contract termination negotiations. But maybe he was just that petty.

I trust you on the tampering thing but why do you see it as tampering and why does he easily get away with it?

Also, I am not comfortable with the language, “throwing his assistant under the bus.” I’m not married to Carlisle and I won’t die on this hill, but isn’t this just an assumption based on a narrative? You are the best here at sticking to the facts, and I have a tough time buying into this as fact.

I don’t want to defend Carlisle. That’s not really my goal. I’m just trying to look at it from a perspective where I believe Carlisle wasn’t being malicious(although I don’t rule it out either).

Let’s just imagine in the meetings with Cuban, Carlisle was asked who he thought would make a good replacement. He may have told Mark I think Mosley is ready for the job but I think Kidd is a better coach for Doncic. If it was later leaked that Carlisle recommended Kidd to Cuban would it still have been worthy of the narrative that he’s been disrespectful to Mosley?

[mavsluvr]

I trust you on the tampering thing but why do you see it as tampering and why does he easily get away with it?

It fits under the definition. A coach saying he hopes another coach under contract will leave his current team to go to another team. 

The NBA doesn't usually prosecute tampering cases unless the team tampered against files a complaint, which was unlikely in this case. 

Also, I am not comfortable with the language, “throwing his assistant under the bus.” I’m not married to Carlisle and I won’t die on this hill, but isn’t this just an assumption based on a narrative? You are the best here at sticking to the facts, and I have a tough time buying into this as fact.

That is the reaction I had when I heard it. Mosley was a candidate for the job and Carlisle strongly recommended someone else -- that seemed like throwing Moze under the bus. That was also the interpretation of people who reported on it -- Followill, Dameris, Cato, McMahon, to name a few. 

I don’t want to defend Carlisle. That’s not really my goal. I’m just trying to look at it from a perspective where I believe Carlisle wasn’t being malicious(although I don’t rule it out either).

I don't know if I would use the word "malicious," although it's possible. My impression is more like "petty," giving in to his anger, hurt feelings, and frustration. Dameris imagines that Carlisle regrets saying it. I don't remember which Mavs reporter said this, but one of them reporting this incident described Carlisle as "mean," adding that he had a way of saying things expressly for the purpose of hurting someone. Don't know if that's really the case or not. 

I still haven't ruled out the possibility that he said it for Cuban, as part of his outgoing deal, but that's me imagining stuff, not a sourced comment, so let's disregard it for now. 

Like you, I am not particularly trying to attack or defend Carlisle, just adding what reporting I see/hear, so that we can all try to make sense of this stuff.

[DallasBasketball]

I don't know if I would use the word "malicious," although it's possible. My impression is more like "petty," giving in to his anger, hurt feelings, and frustration. Dameris imagines that Carlisle regrets saying it. I don't remember which Mavs reporter said this, but one of them reporting this incident described Carlisle as "mean," adding that he had a way of saying things expressly for the purpose of hurting someone. Don't know if that's really the case or not. 

I still haven't ruled out the possibility that he said it for Cuban, as part of his outgoing deal, but that's me imagining stuff, not a sourced comment, so let's disregard it for now. 

Like you, I am not particularly trying to attack or defend Carlisle, just adding what reporting I see/hear, so that we can all try to make sense of this stuff.

Carlisle being petty? Haha. I think that’s an easy one to get behind.

Totally could imagine he regrets saying it. 

The forced Cuban angle is an odd fit but then so is Carlisle coming out and recommending Kidd at the Pacers presser. Things were so strange around here last week I don’t think there anyway that Carlisle could have avoided getting caught up in that. And it took him away from being rational in those moments.

Despite all the reporters repeating the same narrative, it’s just a mental block for me to agree with the said slighting. I think it’s TOTALLY appropriate for Mosley to feel slighted. Just like every player who is taken in the 2nd round was slighted by all first round teams, but I also don’t think it’s that accurate.

[mavsluvr]

Carlisle being petty? Haha. I think that’s an easy one to get behind.

Totally could imagine he regrets saying it. 

The forced Cuban angle is an odd fit but then so is Carlisle coming out and recommending Kidd at the Pacers presser. Things were so strange around here last week I don’t think there anyway that Carlisle could have avoided getting caught up in that. And it took him away from being rational in those moments.

Well, in this instance, all he had to do was refrain from making a public comment. Which is what I would have fully expected. Maybe his strong emotions crowded out his rationality, as you suggest. 

Despite all the reporters repeating the same narrative, it’s just a mental block for me to agree with the said slighting. I think it’s TOTALLY appropriate for Mosley to feel slighted. Just like every player who is taken in the 2nd round was slighted by all first round teams, but I also don’t think it’s that accurate.

Why do you suppose you have a mental block causing you to want to believe that Carlisle did not mean to slight Mosley? Maybe you want to believe the best of Carlisle? I kind of get that -- I have defended Carlisle myself, and have been somewhat surprised to learn how unpopular he had become. So many skeletons fall out of the closet when someone leaves. 

[Kammrath]

Maybe you want to believe the best of Carlisle? I kind of get that -- I have defended Carlisle myself, and have been somewhat surprised to learn how unpopular he had become. So many skeletons fall out of the closet when someone leaves.

My take is that he was the favorite and "best" part of the Mavs for MANY, MANY fans (many of the best posters on this site included). Many latched on to him as the gold standard of Mavericks basketball. For those who did that this last week has been REALLY, REALLY hard as many illusions and beliefs about RC as a man and coach were shattered.

[KillerLeft]

illusions and beliefs about RC as a man and coach were shattered.

You were doing great until right here. I agree with everything else you said, and I can't speak for anyone else, but...

I'm a bigger fan of the man and coach than EVER!

---

[Kammrath]

I'm a bigger fan of the man and coach than EVER!

That surprises me. Can you tell me more?

[Scott41theMavs]

You were doing great until right here. I agree with everything else you said, and I can't speak for anyone else, but...

I'm a bigger fan of the man and coach than EVER!

---

Please tell me this is sarcasm.

[KillerLeft]

Can you tell me more?

 
I'm abstaining, remember? My days of running down the Gaza Strip are over. 

Suffice it to say, nothing I've read this week has changed my opinion of him in the slightest. Some things that shock other people about Carlisle are the equivalent to me of how you feel about people being shocked that Cuban makes decisions for the team he owns.

[DallasBasketball]

I think the mental block is bc I don’t see the two outcomes as mutually exclusive. Someone being recommended meaning someone else is slighted. 

I think of ‘slighted’ as meaning the definition ‘insulted’, in a direct way. 

For me to wrap my head around what’s being said is that an insult can mean anything someone finds offensive and thus a slight can be indirect as long as someone finds it offensive.

[KillerLeft]

Please tell me this is sarcasm.

Not even in the slightest. I will always be a Mavericks fan, but for the first time ever I'm planning to follow two teams in the same sport. Not equally, because who has time for that, but I'm planning to do my best to keep up with the broad strokes of what's going on with the Pacers.