07-13-2021, 04:07 PM
Clip of our bigs when a shot is attempted this season...
https://media.giphy.com/media/14p8DJ3Gk6hZfi/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/14p8DJ3Gk6hZfi/giphy.gif
Josh Green is a top 5 Mavs player...
2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived
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07-13-2021, 04:07 PM
Clip of our bigs when a shot is attempted this season...
https://media.giphy.com/media/14p8DJ3Gk6hZfi/giphy.gif
Josh Green is a top 5 Mavs player...
07-13-2021, 04:20 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-13-2021, 04:21 PM by Okstate819.)
(07-13-2021, 03:05 PM)mvossman Wrote: I agree with all of this until the conclusion. You are not paying Collins a max contract because of his defense. You could plug DFS or Maxi in the same spot and get roughly the same defense (in some cases better). Your paying Collins a max because he can do both. You go get Holmes cause he can do both. (Each guy will also be even better offensively with Luka IMO) The list of 4 or 5 who can be on the floor in crunch time and not be a liability on either end of the floor is extremely small. If you believe that’s what your getting, it’s not an overpay for either guy.
07-13-2021, 04:25 PM
(07-13-2021, 03:55 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: However, what I feel like I have learned throughout this KP saga is that even the most offensive-minded center MUST at least be better than average on defense for the team to win. I totally agree with all of this (except for the baseball analogy, you can move the shortstop to a different position, can't with a center). The most important aspect of a center today is that they can guard the rim and be mobile enough to not get completely killed on switches. Offensively they just need provide some kind of space (generally vertically) to not kill an offense. In fairness to KP, until this year I think he has generally been a slightly above average rim protector/defender. He just totally shit the bed this season, and that could be that he never really got his legs under from coming back (possibly early) from his injury. The kicker is I don't know that the FO is going to be able to make that assessment before free agency. If we do manage to dump KP, I would rather go after Holmes than Collins because he is the better defender, will not cost assets and is cheaper. And if we have Holmes, it seems a huge waste of resources to spend all of that for Collins who has way too much overlap with Holmes offensively.
07-13-2021, 04:29 PM
Spencer Dinwiddie and Otto Porter Jr., with no KP movement, is a real possibility.
07-13-2021, 04:40 PM
(07-13-2021, 04:20 PM)Okstate819 Wrote: Your paying Collins a max because he can do both. You go get Holmes cause he can do both. (Each guy will also be even better offensively with Luka IMO) Is the list really that small? I can think of several MLE candidates off the top of my head: Theis Batum Ibaka Millsap Not to mention DFS and a healthy Maxi. Is Collins significantly better offensively than any of these guys? Yes. Is Collins offensive value damped by having a full time center clogging the paint? Yes. Is that dampened offense worth assets and the max? I'm skeptical. Given your original premise that the offense will always be good with Luka, it seems like we should be spending those resources on improving the rest of the defense. Collins contribution to this team over DFS/Maxi would be entirely offensive.
07-13-2021, 04:43 PM
(07-13-2021, 03:55 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I totally agree with this statement, as well as the rest of the ensuing paragraph. I think the key here is on the contract size with the center - it makes it less likely that you have a lineup of 4-5 playoff-playable wings to go small with, if your center is on a max contract. There are also the political consequences involved in benching a max contract center during meaningful stretches of a playoff series. The Clippers had the roster and payroll equation to effectively respond to their center getting targeted on defense. Mavs and Jazz did not.
07-13-2021, 04:44 PM
Collins is better than our current pathetic ball watching crop of bigs when it comes to rebounding and actually making sure the other team does not have an easy rebounding chance...
Josh Green is a top 5 Mavs player...
07-13-2021, 04:49 PM
(07-13-2021, 04:43 PM)VintagePejav2 Wrote: There are also the political consequences involved in benching a max contract center during meaningful stretches of a playoff series. This is the biggest problem, I think. Max money means you're on the floor, no matter what. To beat the Mavs, Lue had to pull Zubac, basically, but nobody batted an eye at that because he is paid like a guy who that happens to from time to time. No matter what Porzingis gives you on defense, coaching in Dallas right now means that you have to live with it. It is an untenable situation, imo.
07-13-2021, 04:59 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-13-2021, 05:24 PM by jesusshuttlesworth82.)
(07-13-2021, 02:59 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: That's a great principle to have. Thing is, with this free agent class, the only great wing available is Kawhi (maybe), who is a pipe dream, and the only great guards available are Ball (whom many here are leery of money-whipping, for whatever reason) and 2 or 3 dudes who need a cane. Oh, and Dennis Schroeder, whom I want no part of. I like Collins. I like Holmes. I don't like the idea of paying above market rate for 2 bigs. It's that simple. The game is going away from two bigs seeing significant minutes in crunch time in the playoffs. I suspect that's why Atlanta would be getting rid of Collins. If he can't play significant minutes as a small ball center, I am probably out on him too. We need more shooting and in this scenario, we're getting SIGNIFICANTLY worse in that department. Replacing KP and THJ with Holmes and Murray. That's a disaster when DFS and Dejounte Murray are the two shooters you've surrounded Luka with in the starting/closing lineup. edit: I just realized I used significant 3 times in 4 sentences
07-13-2021, 06:25 PM
(07-13-2021, 04:59 PM)jesusshuttlesworth82 Wrote: I like Collins. I like Holmes. I don't like the idea of paying above market rate for 2 bigs. It's that simple. The game is going away from two bigs seeing significant minutes in crunch time in the playoffs. I suspect that's why Atlanta would be getting rid of Collins. If he can't play significant minutes as a small ball center, I am probably out on him too. Respect this take regarding bigs. Watching these playoffs though, I think we might be seeing a flip in thinking regarding value of certain bigs. The guys who CAN stay on the floor during crunch time are some of the most valuable players in the league. If we had Collins/Holmes against the clips and they go small we would’ve punished them on the inside while also having enough length and athleticism to defend at a higher level than we did. If they are then forced to keep Zubac on the floor… Luka just torched him again.
07-13-2021, 06:55 PM
(07-13-2021, 01:34 PM)mvossman Wrote: Well, to use a Kammrath response, I 100% disagree. Can't only use regular season statistics. Need to consider what happens to the effectiveness of lineups when in a 7 game series and the opposing team starts micromanaging their counters. Clippers see that 5 out lineup and play Batum at the 5 and have Kawhi + PG already. Lineup can't punish that at all since the roster has no counters for their counter other than a hail mary with Boban. Ty Lue already called it mid-series, just said, yeah they're gonna go to Boban. (and in his mind, he already knew he didn't care)
07-13-2021, 07:00 PM
(07-13-2021, 06:25 PM)Okstate819 Wrote: Respect this take regarding bigs. Watching these playoffs though, I think we might be seeing a flip in thinking regarding value of certain bigs. The guys who CAN stay on the floor during crunch time are some of the most valuable players in the league. If we had Collins/Holmes against the clips and they go small we would’ve punished them on the inside while also having enough length and athleticism to defend at a higher level than we did. If they are then forced to keep Zubac on the floor… Luka just torched him again. But only one of those guys is "punishing" small ball at a time. If Holmes is on the floor then Collins is on the perimeter. He is not punishing small ball from there. This is an argument for having one of those guys, but not both.
07-13-2021, 07:06 PM
(07-12-2021, 11:31 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: People say this often, and I might be really stupid, but I feel like the exact opposite is proven true almost every year. Well in the end... Westbrook has been traded twice. Love I think may get moved again. I'm not saying it doesn't come at a cost. But I don't buy the idea a contract is unmovable. Also in a future needing to move KP scenario it's only a 2 year deal past this year. That's not even that long if the scenario of KP being so bad or hurt you are stuck with him.
07-13-2021, 07:13 PM
(07-13-2021, 06:55 PM)Jakeospikez Wrote: Can't only use regular season statistics. Need to consider what happens to the effectiveness of lineups when in a 7 game series and the opposing team starts micromanaging their counters. Clippers see that 5 out lineup and play Batum at the 5 and have Kawhi + PG already. Lineup can't punish that at all since the roster has no counters for their counter other than a hail mary with Boban. Ty Lue already called it mid-series, just said, yeah they're gonna go to Boban. (and in his mind, he already knew he didn't care) My argument was that Luka does not need special unique frontcourt players for offense. You are making a defensive argument. There is no question that KP was bad defensively and that if he can't get back to what he was prior to this season he needs to go, and he may need to go regardless. But you replace him with Holmes for half the price and you don't have these issues. No need to add Collins to the ledger. As for the offense in the playoffs, the starting lineup (which replaced JRich with THJ) was 126 off with a +10. That group was not the problem.
07-13-2021, 07:14 PM
I like Otto Porter depending on the price.
He's a solid defender and shooter when healthy... So a gamble on his health is ok... At the right price. Not sure what that price is tho
07-13-2021, 07:19 PM
(07-13-2021, 07:14 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: I like Otto Porter depending on the price. He is never healthy. I would risk the room exception on him if there was nothing else out there, but that's about it. Assuming we land any of the big fish, we will likely be operating under the cap and trying to get two starters with a big signing and one slightly over MLE (to outbid all the MLE teams). There are way too many players in that MLE zone I would rather have.
I still disagree with trading KP for whatever....that's nonsense.
Collins was completely healthy, on a team with an elite rim protector and multiple offensive threats around him in the top 7-8 players, while the assessment of this board is that all the players on this roster are terrible (outside of Luka) and as horrible as KP was defensively, if you look at defensive rating on statmuse, he's still had a better defensive rating than Collins last season....while some are saying that he's a better defender. Last season, before the injury, KP posted the second best defensive rating of his career. It just feels like a case of grass is always greener, to me. Collins does shoot the 3 better, which is awesome, but if KP is healthy, he's better than Collins. Holmes is obviously a good rim runner and more athletic big on a lesser team, but still a worse defensive rating than KP...virtually the same in per 36 stats on all three (except Collins' superior 3 point shooting), and KP was dealing with an injury. If you get a good deal or a lateral one that puts the Mavs in a better position, but man, NO to trading for these trash packages, and this "step back to get better" bull crap. If Atlanta isn't giving Collins a max, after going to the conference finals with him as the second leading scorer (which is still lower than KP), you might want to think about it. I really, really hope that the front office is listening to none of this junk, man....really. The ONLY thing that changes this for me is if KP is asking for a trade or if Luka is saying get rid of him like he feels about Haralabob. For the last year, I've heard KP and Rick complain about where the analytics tell them to do, and Luka to fuss about who's running the court, Bob or Rick....and then with it coming out today that Rick was actually HELPING Mosley to get to Orlando with the video, then I think the MBT +1 was extremely toxic, and breaking that up might be the biggest problem this last year. Collins defensive rating last year -- https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=john+...ng+2020-21 KP defensive rating -- https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kristap...ar-by-year Holmes defensive rating -- https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/richaun...ar-by-year Collins stats -- https://www.basketball-reference.com/pla...ijo01.html KP stats -- https://www.basketball-reference.com/pla...ikr01.html Holmes stats -- https://www.basketball-reference.com/pla...eri01.html
"There are no friends on the court." - Luka Doncic
07-13-2021, 07:29 PM
Would the Brooklyn Nets entertain a sign and trade of Spencer Dinwiddie plus Joe Harris for Kristaps Porzingis?
My idea is: S&T Dinwiddie for 20M/year Harris 16M for Kristaps Porzingis plus other assets if necessary. The Nets are all-in to win championships, and KP would be the 4th best player and probably will play better defense alongside defenders like Claxton, DAJ, KD. KD likes KP, I think. The Mavs will have a secondary playmaker in Dinwiddie, a knockdown shooter in Harris, and will be able to retain THJ at probably 18-20M/year, and will still have the MLE and the BAE to sign defensive players, and an option to trade JRich when he opts in.
07-13-2021, 07:33 PM
I'm going to bash my head thru a wall if we SNT for Dinwiddie as our big move lol.
07-13-2021, 07:34 PM
(07-13-2021, 07:13 PM)mvossman Wrote: My argument was that Luka does not need special unique frontcourt players for offense. You are making a defensive argument. There is no question that KP was bad defensively and that if he can't get back to what he was prior to this season he needs to go, and he may need to go regardless. But you replace him with Holmes for half the price and you don't have these issues. No need to add Collins to the ledger. I was referring to the Mavs offense vs the Clippers defense. They could go to that lineup and not care cause the Mavs have no elite slashers or inside scorers other than Luka who gets all of the attention. Don't really punish them on the boards either. Dodo is a great player, but his ball handling is still very weak and he can't score when driving. You should only have 1 maybe 2 of those guys in your starting 5 I think. Dodo + Maxi + KP is like 3 of those guys. THJ isn't the best slasher either. Tried to punish them with Boban but then you get the other issues Boban brings plus moving KP to 4 and playing zone and all that. I think ideally you keep Dodo starting and move Maxi to the bench. It might not happen that way though because other teams would want Maxi and not Powell so he may have to be moved for whatever deals they make this offseason. Do you have the stats for that lineup vs the Clippers small ball lineup specifically? Rating could be super high due to it destroying the Clippers Zubac lineups in the early games. |
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