Trade & FA 2023-24: Sexton On the Market? | ORL Likes Hartenstein?

[KillerLeft]

Which means Green, THJ, and the 2025 pick are all available to be moved to make space for him.

Technically, you could add Gafford and Kleber to that list. But yes, SOMEONE this board likes is probably not going to be here next year, it’s pretty easy to see that coming. Remember, they might come out of this experience thinking they need to retain Jones Jr AND improve in one more area. Hopefully, getting him locked up and depending on internal development from guys like Hardy and O-Max will be enough, but who knows what they’re thinking. 

Luka, Kyrie, Washington and Lively aren’t going anywhere. The salary has to come from somewhere.

[Smitty]

But yes, SOMEONE this board likes is probably not going to be here next year, it’s pretty easy to see that coming.

Who on this board still likes Tim Hardaway Jr.?

[mvossman]

He's said this a dozen times now in different settings.  Even though it is exactly what I'd tell him to say if I were his agent, I believe he is sincere.  Of course, everything depends on the definition of getting "everything situated".  That qualifier is just as important (maybe more so) than the part about loving Dallas.

People tend to forget that he's had an MLE level deal in the past.  I suspect he isn't gunning for 40% of an MLE deal.  We don't have to get anything 'situated' to offer that.  It is going to take us opening up space.  We already pay several guys who are 5th-8th in the rotation in this range including Green, Gafford and Maxi.  No way DJJ takes $5mm or even $7mm.  I don't see it being less than $9mm and very likely it s the full $12.9mm

Totally agree.  On the other hand, it seems like if we can get to that number, we won't have to worry about somebody offering him a silly Bruce Brown contract and him walking.  He knows there is no situation where we can offer more than MLE.  

This brings us back to top priority being to hold onto DJJ.  Either they find a creative way to dump Timmy without spending too much in assets, or they dump Green (maybe for an asset) and then use Timmy to replace Green.  I'm of a mind that sending out Green means we need another POA defender.  Between injury issues and playoff performance, I don't know that we can trust Exum for that role.

A third creator would be nice, but I think the higher priority is to keep the current version of the team in tact.  What we could use is a veteran point guard to provide some help when one of Luka or Kyrie are out.  Maybe with the BAE or a ring chaser (we may actually get those now).

[KillerLeft]

Who on this board still likes Tim Hardaway Jr.?

Not the point. I’m talking about Green, Gafford, or even Kleber. Pretty sure you knew that before you took your shot at Hardaway, so I assume that was just to make fun of me. 

I will go ahead and give you what you want and say that yes, I still believe in Hardaway. I would prefer to have him on the team than Green, for example, not because I don’t like green, but because I still value what I believe Hardaway can do, and what he DID do during the first half of this past season.

But, it is beyond obvious that he is on his way out at this point, so there’s just nothing to be gained by discussing it anymore. The obvious point is that Hardaway will be gone, but it’s seeming increasingly likely to me that another of those guys will be gone, too, which was the entire point made, but you knew that, of course.

[mvossman]

Not the point. I’m talking about Green, Gafford, or even Kleber. Pretty sure you knew that before you took your shot at Hardaway, so I assume that was just to make fun of me. 

I will go ahead and give you what you want and say that yes, I still believe in Hardaway. I would prefer to have him on the team than Green, for example, not because I don’t like green, but because I still value what I believe Hardaway can do, and what he DID do during the first half of this past season.

But, it is beyond obvious that he is on his way out at this point, so there’s just nothing to be gained by discussing it anymore. The obvious point is that Hardaway will be gone, but it’s seeming increasingly likely to me that another of those guys will be gone, too, which was the entire point made, but you knew that, of course.

I guess the question is why do you think someone else will likely be gone?  Do you think it will cost too much to dump Timmy so we will need to trade him with an asset for another player?

[KillerLeft]

I might be totally wrong about this, but I feel more and more like I get what Kidd is going for here with the team and I personally don’t think third creator is anywhere near the top of the checklist.

They have consistently asked Hardy to audition for that role, starting in the preseason, and his improvement in that, specific area is why he is playing ahead of Exum and Hardaway right now. I think you can pencil him in as the third ball handler, first guard off the bench. It is certainly his job to lose, and they will still have Dante Exum in that mix, too. I kind of doubt they are even thinking about replacing those guys at all. Maybe that changes if they haven’t figured some things out by the trade deadline.

If we look at how much better PJ Washington made this team, simply by existing as a long, versatile wing who can play as a big, the arms race for me seems clear. They have Washington and DJJ. Kleber is a bigger, slower option, and can play some 5. Green is a smaller, faster option, and can play some guard.

If I wanted to play the way I feel like Kidd wants to play, I would want ANOTHER Washington/DJJ type. If you can get a better one, great, but even if the new guy is the third best of that group, it helps the rotation tremendously. This is why I jumped on FGump’s DFS idea the other day. I don’t really care if it’s him, specifically, but I actually think that is the type of player they’ll want to add. Another long, rangey defender. Another guy who can catch and shoot. Another guy who can floor the ball on a closeout. Another guy who is dangerous in transition. Another guy who can play multiple positions. Another guy who knows his role and plays it without complaining.

[Smitty]

Not the point. I’m talking about Green, Gafford, or even Kleber. Pretty sure you knew that before you took your shot at Hardaway, so I assume that was just to make fun of me. 

I will go ahead and give you what you want and say that yes, I still believe in Hardaway. I would prefer to have him on the team than Green, for example, not because I don’t like green, but because I still value what I believe Hardaway can do, and what he DID do during the first half of this past season.

But, it is beyond obvious that he is on his way out at this point, so there’s just nothing to be gained by discussing it anymore. The obvious point is that Hardaway will be gone, but it’s seeming increasingly likely to me that another of those guys will be gone, too, which was the entire point made, but you knew that, of course.

I just disagree with your point. I’m not picking on you. You’ve said for a week plus that SOMEONE other than, or in addition to, Tim Hardaway Jr is likely to be gone. I don’t see how the Mavs could feel that way with what they’re building or how that could be the logical assumption by any fan. Other than to be different or pessimistic.

If the Mavs traded for Gafford, made it to the Finals (won the finals) how could anyone say that the next move is to trade him to clear space for DJJ?

If the Mavs just extended Josh Green and made it to the Finals (won the finals) how could anyone say that the next move is to trade him to clear space for DJJ?

I think you added Maxi in this group for salary reasons also but how can anyone think the Mavs are willing to trade him and his important role (every team in the NBA is trying to find a Maxi) to clear space for DJJ?

It’s not that those CAN’T happen but your previous post was that one of those things is extremely likely.

[KillerLeft]

I guess the question is why do you think someone else will likely be gone?  Do you think it will cost too much to dump Timmy so we will need to trade him with an asset for another player?

I feel like I covered that in an earlier post. Let me find it.

[KillerLeft]

Technically, you could add Gafford and Kleber to that list. But yes, SOMEONE this board likes is probably not going to be here next year, it’s pretty easy to see that coming. Remember, they might come out of this experience thinking they need to retain Jones Jr AND improve in one more area. Hopefully, getting him locked up and depending on internal development from guys like Hardy and O-Max will be enough, but who knows what they’re thinking. 

Luka, Kyrie, Washington and Lively aren’t going anywhere. The salary has to come from somewhere.

Here. SleepingHero made the point, and I thought it was a good one.

[KillerLeft]

I just disagree with your point. I’m not picking on you. You’ve said for a week plus that SOMEONE other than, or in addition to, Tim Hardaway Jr is likely to be gone. I don’t see how the Mavs could feel that way with what they’re building or how that could be the logical assumption by any fan. Other than to be different or pessimistic.

If the Mavs traded for Gafford, made it to the Finals (won the finals) how could anyone say that the next move is to trade him to clear space for DJJ?

If the Mavs just extended Josh Green and made it to the Finals (won the finals) how could anyone say that the next move is to trade him to clear space for DJJ?

I think you added Maxi in this group for salary reasons also but how can anyone think the Mavs are willing to trade him and his important role (every team in the NBA is trying to find a Maxi) to clear space for DJJ?

It’s not that those CAN’T happen but your previous post was that one of those things is extremely likely.

Well, it’s a pretty disingenuous way to disagree with my point, don’t you think? If you knew ahead of time what I meant, why strawman it to be about Hardaway? Kind of makes me assume you are being a jerk, frankly. Willful misinterpretation is probably the easiest way to be difficult on an Internet forum. I have a pretty good idea of when I’m being messed with 

You called me the loudest voice here the other day. That was a shot, and extremely untrue. It’s pretty clear that there’s something I am doing that bothers you, so why not just put me on ignore and be done with it? If you feel compelled to respond in such a way as to illicit a negative response, I guess that’s your prerogative. Not sure I really get it though.

[Smitty]

Well, it’s a pretty disingenuous way to disagree with my point, don’t you think? If you knew ahead of time what I meant, why strawman it to be about Hardaway? Kind of makes me assume you are being a jerk, frankly. Willful misinterpretation is probably the easiest way to be difficult on an Internet forum. I have a pretty good idea of when I’m being messed with 

You called me the loudest voice here the other day. That was a shot, and extremely untrue. It’s pretty clear that there’s something I am doing that bothers you, so why not just put me on ignore and be done with it? If you feel compelled to respond in such a way as to illicit a negative response, I guess that’s your prerogative. Not sure I really get it though.

Again, you take things personally for some reason. The loudest voice comment was because you have 15K+ posts here and are one of the main reasons this board is still as active as it is. It was a compliment. I’ve told you more times than I can count that I almost always agree with your posts. And when I don’t, somehow you always take it personal?

[KillerLeft]

If the Mavs traded for Gafford, made it to the Finals (won the finals) how could anyone say that the next move is to trade him to clear space for DJJ?

If the Mavs just extended Josh Green and made it to the Finals (won the finals) how could anyone say that the next move is to trade him to clear space for DJJ?

I think you added Maxi in this group for salary reasons also but how can anyone think the Mavs are willing to trade him and his important role (every team in the NBA is trying to find a Maxi) to clear space for DJJ?

It’s not that those CAN’T happen but your previous post was that one of those things is extremely likely.

For one thing, you are still missing the point. Very badly. Maybe you aren’t doing it on purpose, maybe you just didn’t read very carefully. Or hey, maybe I didn’t make myself clear enough. The point was about Jones AND another player. But…

I would MUCH rather trade any of those names you mentioned than let Jones walk. Let’s assume for a second that things CAN’T be accomplished by simply trading Hardaway. What if his worst detractors are correct, and nobody will take him without multiple first round picks? I don’t believe that for a second, but sign me up to trade Green’s ass before I give somebody a hoard of assets just to take Hardaway off our hands, and there is no way I’m not gonna figure out a way to re-sign Jones if I’m in charge. 

To me, this is so obvious. If they can just dump hardaway and get all accomplished, great! He’s not even in the rotation for this team right now, regardless of how you weigh in on him as a player. I’m just saying that it seems pretty likely to me that it’s going to get more complicated than that, especially given Dan’s good point that there might be other areas that need addressing, too, not just re-signing Jones. Keyword being “might.”

[KillerLeft]

Again, you take things personally for some reason. The loudest voice comment was because you have 15K+ posts here and are one of the main reasons this board is still as active as it is. It was a compliment. I’ve told you more times than I can count that I almost always agree with your posts. And when I don’t, somehow you always take it personal?

I am 99.9% sure that the “who here still likes Hardaway” comment was you taking the entire conversation personally, And I still feel that right now as I’m pressing post on this one. I’m still gonna feel like that tomorrow. You don’t want me to take things personally, don’t get personal.

[Tyler]

If I wanted to play the way I feel like Kidd wants to play, I would want ANOTHER Washington/DJJ type. If you can get a better one, great, but even if the new guy is the third best of that group, it helps the rotation tremendously. This is why I jumped on FGump’s DFS idea the other day. I don’t really care if it’s him, specifically, but I actually think that is the type of player they’ll want to add. Another long, rangey defender. Another guy who can catch and shoot. Another guy who can floor the ball on a closeout. Another guy who is dangerous in transition. Another guy who can play multiple positions. Another guy who knows his role and plays it without complaining.

Luckily, that guy is already on the roster. His name is OMax. And I think he's going to have a pretty good role next year as a PJ/DJJ backup.

[Smitty]

I am 99.9% sure that the “who’s here still likes Hardaway” comment was you taking the entire conversation personally, And I still feel that right now as I’m pressing post on this one. I’m still gonna feel like that tomorrow. You don’t want me to take things personally, don’t get personal.

I haven’t taken anything here personally. It’s not that serious. My entire point was that I simply disagree with your point. About basketball.

I’ll leave this topic alone now!

Go Mavs!

[KillerLeft]

Guys, you don’t have to worry about Hardaway anymore. You can all sit back and think you were right about him this whole time, despite how wrong you have all been. That war is over. He is not going to be a Maverick next year. Does everyone have to take turns kicking me in the balls about it the way you kick Dan in the balls about Powell? Incidentally, Dan has been right about Powell this whole time!

I watched “best of the Mavs” video the other day. It was like 30 minutes long, and every single clip was from this season. It was from the NBA feed. I swear, Hardaway touched the ball on like 60% of the highlights. Finishing Luka passes, throwing alley oops, passing off of the dribble from the paint to a cutter, Coming up with help side steals and throwing ahead to a leaker in transition… On and on it went. All of the things every single voice in here says that he can’t do every single day. He did it through the first 60% of this season at a very high level.

I have no idea why he couldn’t get out of this slump to end the season. I can speculate, but I don’t know. What I do know is that he is nowhere remotely close to being as worthless as this board treats him.

[KillerLeft]

Luckily, that guy is already on the roster. His name is OMax. And I think he's going to have a pretty good role next year as a PJ/DJJ backup.

From your lips to God’s ear, my friend. That is my number one source of excitement for the team moving forward, almost.

I guess that’s kind of a silly thing to say when your team is in the NBA finals, because there are a ton of things to be excited about. But I am REALLY excited about O-Max.

[F Gump]

Not the point. I’m talking about Green, Gafford, or even Kleber. Pretty sure you knew that before you took your shot at Hardaway, so I assume that was just to make fun of me. 

I will go ahead and give you what you want and say that yes, I still believe in Hardaway. I would prefer to have him on the team than Green, for example, not because I don’t like green, but because I still value what I believe Hardaway can do, and what he DID do during the first half of this past season.

But, it is beyond obvious that he is on his way out at this point, so there’s just nothing to be gained by discussing it anymore. The obvious point is that Hardaway will be gone, but it’s seeming increasingly likely to me that another of those guys will be gone, too, which was the entire point made, but you knew that, of course.

No way Gafford is on the table, regardless of how much you keep talking him down. I doubt Kleber is either, despite his injury stints, because he's so valuable (and essentially irreplaceable) when he's healthy.

Isn't the discussion about the viability of obtaining a 6th man type (presumably in the mold of JET) to bring offense off the bench, and how to do that? It seems obvious that THJ is already on the table - he should already have his bags packed, frankly - so it seems to me this is another motivation to have him gone. And Hardy gives them everything THJ does, at a fraction of the price, if you need depth. Not sure what you see in THJ at this point, but it doesn't feel very realistic.

[mvossman]

I am 99.9% sure that the “who here still likes Hardaway” comment was you taking the entire conversation personally, And I still feel that right now as I’m pressing post on this one. I’m still gonna feel like that tomorrow. You don’t want me to take things personally, don’t get personal.

To be perfectly honest, I didn't read that post as a bash on "Timmy lovers" (a term that could apply to me as well).  I took it to mean why would we need to send anyone out in addition to Timmy.  Smitty has no history with getting ugly in here.

[KillerLeft]

No way Gafford is on the table, regardless of how much you keep talking him down. I doubt Kleber is either, despite his injury stints, because he's so valuable (and essentially irreplaceable) when he's healthy.

Not talking Gafford down, not even once, regardless of how many times you accuse me of it. There are things he can do and things he can’t, and I have pointed them out correctly. He wouldn’t be my first choice to trade, either. I put him on the list because he is not one of their top guys, and he makes real money. That was what I took to be the point of your earlier post, the intersection of those criteria. Gafford is the sixth most important Mav, at best. Good player! Not as important as Jones, in my opinion.

I also would not trade Kleber, and there are years and years and years of me defending HIM against all of the knuckleheads in here, too. I included him on the list because, again, he represents the intersection of middle of the totem pole and high dollar amount. On my personal list, he would be above Gafford.

If someone besides THJ has to go in order to get all accomplished this summer, my strong belief is that it will be Josh Green.