Trade & FA 2023-24: Sexton On the Market? | ORL Likes Hartenstein?

[F Gump]

I agree with all of those who say keeping DJJ is our most important priority this coming summer.  I was a DJJ champion this past offseason but I did not anticipate he would become a starter or a playoff hero.  He is now an integral part of our success.  

I think trading Gafford is crazy as he's literally a starter on a team in the Western Conference semifinals.  He may have struggled in the playoffs but he was terrific in the regular season for us.  I also want to keep Maxi because he's again showed what an outstanding contributor he can be in a playoff series. 

That leaves THJ as the obvious guy to send elsewhere to clear some salary cap.

I think the Hornets would be a good home for THJ and his veteran leadership.

I suggest the following trade:  THJ to the Hornets i.e. for Vasilije Micic and their 2nd round pick (#42 overall).  Micic has two years left on his deal but it's split over two seasons so it would save us around $8 million in cap space this coming summer.  The 42nd pick would receive a fairly low contract of around $1.4 million per year which I believe would also save us some money relative to a vet minimum veteran.  I don't understand how everyone calculates salary cap machinations but I believe these moves would allow us to offer DJJ something between $9 and 10 million per year this off-season.  I think that is a number that might possibly allow us to keep him.

Micic would slot in as a useful 3rd point guard if Kyrie or Luka isn't available.    

We would need Hardy to become our top bench scorer in this scenario.  

I believe this would free up enough money to bring back DJJ.  Especially on a 1 plus 1 deal with the 2nd-year being a player option.  

Please get this post to Nico and Dennis Lindsay.  Thank you for your service.

Micic is an interesting name, but not sure he would be a good fit. Good passer, but meh-to-poor in shooting efficiency. He's not a good shooter on 3s, not a good defender. Good assist guy. Exum is probably a better fit on both ends of the court. Micic would probably need way more minutes than the Mavs have to offer, too..

If CHA decides to re-sign Bridges (or to SNT him, with similar salary coming back), they won't have cap room to do a THJ-Micic swap.

"I believe this would free up enough money to bring back DJJ. "...Maybe? If CHA did have cap room, that swap would give the Mavs about 8.5-9.0M in room to sign DJJ.

[omahen]

I think THJ is far from positive value and that it is a dream that anyone would pay asset(s) for him without sending back a far worse contract. We can picture his veteran impact, but fact is he doesn't really contribute to winning. Or very little, as his only advantage is shooting and he even isn't elite at it. He is a tank commander. Cap space teams that want to climb from tanking positions will spend their cap on true culture and impact changers. Houston for example went for two hard nosed defenders last season.

Cap space teams that will remain tanking, will be selling their cap space for assets.

I agree Micic is not a good option. Only frees 8 mil and difficult to imagine he could play next to Luka and Kyrie due to his poor shooting and questionable defense.

[surfpuckmd]

Micic is an interesting name, but not sure he would be a good fit. Good passer, but meh-to-poor in shooting efficiency. He's not a good shooter on 3s, not a good defender. Good assist guy. Exum is probably a better fit on both ends of the court. Micic would probably need way more minutes than the Mavs have to offer, too..

If CHA decides to re-sign Bridges (or to SNT him, with similar salary coming back), they won't have cap room to do a THJ-Micic swap.

"I believe this would free up enough money to bring back DJJ. "...Maybe? If CHA did have cap room, that swap would give the Mavs about 8.5-9.0M in room to sign DJJ.

I assume the Hornets will want to bring back Bridges as they've already accepted the bad publicity for playing him last season.  It seems like my proposal will not work under likely circumstances.

Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of teams who look like good THJ fits.  I think we have to hope Orlando believes in him or the Pistons are willing to accept him for some 2nd-round picks.   Maybe something like THJ to Orlando, Joe Ingles to Detroit and cap space to Dallas would work.  We'd throw a couple 2nd-rounders to the Pistons in that situation.

[SleepingHero]

@esidery
The Sixers believe they have a real chance of signing Paul George away from the Clippers, per
@KevinOConnorNBA
(https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/th...0656353959).

Philadelphia can afford George on a max contract this summer to pair alongside Joel Embiid and Tyrese Maxey.

[SleepingHero]

https://thedunkcentral.com/report-the-ut...te-murray/

REPORT: The Utah Jazz rejected a trade involving Keyonte George for Dejounte Murray

"I will tell you that there was some talk about Dejounte Murray to the Jazz at the trade deadline and it was going to cost the Jazz Keyonte George and the Jazz said no."

[mvossman]

I assume the Hornets will want to bring back Bridges as they've already accepted the bad publicity for playing him last season.  It seems like my proposal will not work under likely circumstances.

Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of teams who look like good THJ fits.  I think we have to hope Orlando believes in him or the Pistons are willing to accept him for some 2nd-round picks.   Maybe something like THJ to Orlando, Joe Ingles to Detroit and cap space to Dallas would work.  We'd throw a couple 2nd-rounders to the Pistons in that situation.

The Timmy options are short.  I think Orlando or Detroit are the only likely trade partners.  If DJJ ends up costing the full MLE and Timmy is the way to get there I think our options (in order of my preference) are:

Send Timmy + first for Grimes
Send Timmy + 2nd(s) for air
Stretch waive Timmy

[F Gump]

The Timmy options are short.  I think Orlando or Detroit are the only likely trade partners.  If DJJ ends up costing the full MLE and Timmy is the way to get there I think our options (in order of my preference) are:

Send Timmy + first for Grimes
Send Timmy + 2nd(s) for air
Stretch waive Timmy

"The Timmy options are short. " ...You may be right, but what happens in the playoffs going forward will have a real bearing on his value. It may not end up as low as we fear. Cross your fingers.

As for the SW option, while it's always available, it doesn't get to full MLE money for DJJ (instead, somewhere around 8.7 - 9.0M, maybe?). That might be enough or it might mandate another move, raising the "price" even further.

There's a certain point at which DJJ may have to be willing to meet in the middle, so that signing him doesn't require gutting the team of needed depth.

[omahen]

The Timmy options are short.  I think Orlando or Detroit are the only likely trade partners.  If DJJ ends up costing the full MLE and Timmy is the way to get there I think our options (in order of my preference) are:

Send Timmy + first for Grimes
Send Timmy + 2nd(s) for air
Stretch waive Timmy

I don't see any of them as realistic. Orlando had an awesome season and they will likely try to get someone very impactful next to their youngsters. I think they would be very dissapointed if all their cap space and all their assets only net them a THJ. I think they might be in a play for any star that becomes available.

Detroit will imho want to take a step forward and they have all the cap space in the world. I think they could do better by overpaying some other vet. 

SA can be a trade partner for a straight up dump. I could see them tanking for another year. Utah probably in same category. 

Toronto could have a bunch of cap space. How about THJ and Green for Bruce Brown? Only saves some 5 mil, but brings in another very valuable rotation player that is probably better than either THJ or Green. Perhaps we give them our Canadian to free enough money.

[F Gump]

How about THJ and Green for Bruce Brown? Only saves some 5 mil, but brings in another very valuable rotation player that is probably better than either THJ or Green. Perhaps we give them our Canadian to free enough money.

None of that does anything useful re DJJ - even with DP included, it barely gets more than TxMLE for DJJ. Maybe 6M or so..

And while I'd rather have Brown than THJ or Green, I don't like him for 23M at all. I suspect that Brown is more likely to get waived than traded, frankly, unless TOR is willing to take an ugly contract.

[mvossman]

"The Timmy options are short. " ...You may be right, but what happens in the playoffs going forward will have a real bearing on his value. It may not end up as low as we fear. Cross your fingers.

As for the SW option, while it's always available, it doesn't get to full MLE money for DJJ (instead, somewhere around 8.7 - 9.0M, maybe?). That might be enough or it might mandate another move, raising the "price" even further.

There's a certain point at which DJJ may have to be willing to meet in the middle, so that signing him doesn't require gutting the team of needed depth.

I would love for Timmy to a couple of fire games in the playoffs.

So his salary will be a little over 16 mil and by stretch waiving wouldn't that be a little over 5 mil cap hit?  I guess there is also the roster spot.  I thought we had a little room now.  I though it would get us closer than 9.

I wonder if there is any chance of a buyout?  Maybe he takes a couple mil less so he can go sign somewhere else and we get an extra mil or so out of it.

Honestly after last night I'm about ready to dump Green if we can't get off Timmy.  Then use Timmy as an expiring at the TDL to improve.

[KillerLeft]

 
Duly noted.

Let me add - my major area of disagreement with your thoughts is that that I think you completely fail to credit the importance of Gafford to both the Mavs in general, and also to Lively. I'm seeing a Mavs team that overall is now turning games into a war, and wear down the opponent. Even one as big as Minny. It's a different style but one in which the net effect works in the playoffs (think Miami, as a good example), where there are fewer whistles, and it also complements Luka's ability to be a physical force on offense and consistently create half-court offense when games are in grind-it-out mode.

Gafford is more physical than Lively, which you see as a negative, but I think that it instead is a positive, and not just while Gafford is on the floor but for the full 48 minutes. The physicality of Gafford, banging on the opponent big men when Lively is not in the game, softens them up. How long have we been wishing for a physical presence? If you take Gafford out of the equation, there is no longer the same 48-minute grind wearing down the other team. What you see as easily dispensible, replaceable, and an unneeded luxury is something I believe is integral to the overall product and priced reasonably.

In addition, I think your mindset that Gafford is somehow holding Lively back is the opposite of the truth. Not only does Gafford's play make Lively's more effective, it also allows Lively to play with more freedom (fouls), with more than enough talent on deck should either have issues with fouls or injury. Minutes can be adjusted as needed. I agree that Lively is the better and more impactful center, but part of what is making him that good is the ability to spell him and help him with Gafford as needed. And Gafford hasn't even been through camp with the team, which is a path to even bigger things for team-player, and is young enough to grow his game as well.

As for where Kleber fits, it's hard to depend on him, but he's a great piece when he's healthy. His versatility is valuable, as a potential change-of-pace center when one might be needed, but also a great solution to spell PJW at PF. But all of that works way better when there is plenty of talent to man C in a strong way without him (which is Gafford, not Powell!). If only he can be healthy.

I guess you missed my write up in the game thread, where I mentioned how well I thought gafford played. I was way wrong about rebounding in game one and said so hours and hours ago. In that context, the post above seems a little mean spirited to me, but I welcome your thoughts anyway because I respect you.

However, where on earth did you get the idea that I see Gafford’s physicality as a negative???? That’s one of my favorite things about him! I think lively is physical, too, and I think maybe even a little bit more so than Gafford in some effective ways, but we can disagree on that.

I actually made the point weeks ago that part of the rationale for starting Gafford might be that he sets devastating screens and might be loosening up the defense some by wearing it down. The concept of him helping Lively become a better player through things like that as well as just general competition is not lost on me at all, I totally agree. I also agree that it’s amazing to have a player like him (have called it a luxury I don’t know how many times in this thread - luxury is a good thing) for insurance against Lively foul trouble or injury. I mentioned that as a possible rationale for him starting weeks ago, too, despite my feeling that Lively has done very well for a rookie in avoiding rookie fouls. 

The only things I have listed as negatives about Gafford, which I believe are factually negatives, and rather undebatable, are that he does not move his feet in space on defense, and he is not good on the short roll when he has to make quick decisions and/or floor the ball! I think I also called him an overrated rebounder, especially on the defensive end, but that one is debatable, I suppose.

I don’t really get why people are reacting the way they are to the conversation from yesterday. I’m not bashing him, I just see what he is, and I am not one of the people who spent the last eight years hoping to God the Mavs could get a player like this on the roster. I see what’s good about him, FOR SURE, but LIVELY Is the type of guy I have been waiting for. 

And sure, having them both helps the team, and to your point helps both players. Believe me, I understand your point about that. But, they still have two centers who both think they should be high minute centers. that’s obviously not a bad thing, but the context of the conversation was finding expendable areas to create more opportunity to spend salary to get BETTER. I personally think Lively could be playing a lot more, and might not need as much help as you think (at this point). 

And whether I am right or wrong about that last point is irrelevant, because all this was about was creating money for DJJ! The second you said you would trade Green instead, the conversation was over in my book. I think I might agree with that.

[F Gump]

KL, I did not read your other comments (I don't read every thread in the forum). So all I knew was that you thought that Mavs rebounding vs Minny was a hopeless cause, even with Gafford's contributions (and my belief is that this is a rebounding-defense type of team now, playing physically and aggressively in those areas).

I don't see Gafford's weaknesses as things that make him undesirable. Like with all players, there's pluses, minuses, and whether his combo is more helpful or hurtful to the overall result.

I agree Lively is closer to the ideal (Ty Chandler). But it takes many good players to win big. And let's not overlook that when the Mavs added Gafford, they already had Lively and were still struggling in various ways, including an overall weakness at the center position.

As for Green, I'm hopeful he can be better, and valuable. I'd rather keep him, everything else being equal. But who knows - there are lots of moving parts to solving the roster-building equation this summer, and he has to be borderline if we're honest about what he's providing.

[DallasMaverick]

None of that does anything useful re DJJ - even with DP included, it barely gets more than TxMLE for DJJ. Maybe 6M or so..

And while I'd rather have Brown than THJ or Green, I don't like him for 23M at all. I suspect that Brown is more likely to get waived than traded, frankly, unless TOR is willing to take an ugly contract.

Overpaid players are the kiss of death for modern roster-building.

[omahen]

Overpaid players are the kiss of death for modern roster-building.

Brown is a very useful rotation player that will be expiring and sign next contract at a much lower value. He doesn't impact the long-term roster building at all. The issue of that trade not creating enough salary cap room is far bigger than him being overpaid for one season. I think Toronto will get assets for him, if they trade him (or just resign him next season). Of course they will have to eat a poor contract for that, no one is trading a good player and assets for a rotation player.

[RGP1981]

I'm seeing some names that I like as targets.... Grimes, Kispert and Aaron Holiday.

I like how the Mavs team could look by adding them and a 3rd Center... and by shedding THJ, Green, Powell and Morris. The remaining worry would be the health of Exum and Kleber.

G: Kyrie..................... Exum, Holiday
G: DJJ....................... Grimes, Hardy
F: Luka...................... Kispert, (Buy an early 2nd round pick, try to draft the next Herb Jones)
F: PJW....................... Kleber, O-Max
C: Gafford.................. Lively, Sims

---
Although, I'm wondering if the Mavs should go for broke and try to get Deni Avdija instead of Kispert, as a Kleber replacement. Avdija can be backup at both PF and SF. He has some play-making abilities, which can come in handy when one of Kyrie/Luka is sitting.

And to take this another level up, I'd also like to try swapping Hardy for Isaiah Joe.

- Kyrie, DJJ, Luka, PJW/Avdija, Gafford/Lively
- Luka/Kyrie, Grimes/Joe, Avdija, PJW, Gafford/Lively

Notes:
Grimes/Joe in the 2nd lineup for their shooting.
This would be a balanced, yet fearful 9-man playoff rotation.
I don't think this is asking for the moon either... Avdija, Grimes, Joe, Sims... that's it.

[Knutsen]

KL, I did not read your other comments (I don't read every thread in the forum). So all I knew was that you thought that Mavs rebounding vs Minny was a hopeless cause, even with Gafford's contributions (and my belief is that this is a rebounding-defense type of team now, playing physically and aggressively in those areas).

I don't see Gafford's weaknesses as things that make him undesirable. Like with all players, there's pluses, minuses, and whether his combo is more helpful or hurtful to the overall result.

I agree Lively is closer to the ideal (Ty Chandler). But it takes many good players to win big. And let's not overlook that when the Mavs added Gafford, they already had Lively and were still struggling in various ways, including an overall weakness at the center position.

As for Green, I'm hopeful he can be better, and valuable. I'd rather keep him, everything else being equal. But who knows - there are lots of moving parts to solving the roster-building equation this summer, and he has to be borderline if we're honest about what he's providing.

Let‘s not forget that Chandler could only be Chandler because of Haywood and Mahinmi, because he could go all out all the time and didn’t have to hold back, neither energywise nor foulwise. 

Another point is Gafford could still develop quite a bit, he‘s only 25 and playing for a winning team for only a couple of months. Lots of big men come into their own in their late twenties, early thirties, so I think there‘s still some potential on both ends of the floor, don’t you think?

[BigDirk41]

I hope Gafford and Lively have long Mavs careers together. Gafford is important to our success. His physical presence and high energy are really helpful. We've finally found a recipe for winning literally any style of basketball with the current roster. We have to keep all the key pieces next year to be able to continue to do so and that includes Gafford. The front office has to find a way to keep DJJ. That's what they get paid to do. Lively and some random backup wouldn't have us in this position right now in the WCF's with a legit shot at a title. Lively is amazing with a chance to be special, but I think both are needed.

[dirkfansince1998]

I hope Gafford and Lively have long Mavs careers together. Gafford is important to our success. His physical presence and high energy are really helpful. We've finally found a recipe for winning literally any style of basketball with the current roster. We have to keep all the key pieces next year to be able to continue to do so and that includes Gafford. The front office has to find a way to keep DJJ. That's what they get paid to do. Lively and some random backup wouldn't have us in this position right now in the WCF's with a legit shot at a title. Lively is amazing with a chance to be special, but I think both are needed.

We would all prefer it that way but as others mentioned. What do you do if DJJ gets offered more than the taxMLE. You won't be able to bring everyone back and of course most of us would prefer to move on from THJ but that also isn't a given because you need to find a team that can absorb his salary (large parts of it).
I would assume that people in the front office are having the same discussion on a daily basis. Who is the most expendable rotation piece? What is the best way to use the few available assets to keep the core together/improve it? That's where the THJ ideas are coming from. Frome a pure asset management point of view it wouldn't be smart to give up stuff to get rid of him because is contract is going to have more value at the deadline.

[Smitty]

There are a few posters here, that I consider smart basketball people, that view THJ as a positive. It only takes one GM to think the same. I feel very strongly that THJ will be moved, if needed, to bring DJJ back.

I’ve said over and over that very few players, if any, have went from vet minimum to 14M AAV. I’ll believe it when I see it.

He’s still a 8/3/1 player this year. Career 7/3/1. Of course he’s been a great POA defender and an excellent fit here. He did jump to 10/4/1 so far in the playoffs but I hardly think that screams 4yr-55M to some other team after 1yr-3M.

[Dahlsim]

Let‘s not forget that Chandler could only be Chandler because of Haywood and Mahinmi, because he could go all out all the time and didn’t have to hold back, neither energywise nor foulwise. 

Great mention.  Kudos for calling out the 3-headed Mavs championship beast at center.  All 3 guys really contributed during the run.