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(07-04-2023, 08:09 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: If we did THJ for Washington as part of the Bertans/Holmes deal, we could actually absorb Zubac without sending out any salary and be under the first apron.
The assumption being PJ makes what Hardaway makes or less.
It looks to me like you're assuming Holmes isn't getting the TK, yes? If so, you're making it too hard on the Zubac front. Without the TK, you can already absorb Zubac in the Bertans/Holmes deal, with no outgoing salary and without doing anything else.
And the THJ for PJW swap could be a simple standalone deal too.
But as you noted, finding a home for McGee or Holmes (and maybe even both) is almost certainly a necessary part of the equation if Zubac is being added.
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(07-04-2023, 09:05 PM)The Jom Wrote: Five centers no power forwards. Is that really what you all think? I guess I’m the oddball here. I think PF is overcrowded with Luka, Maxi, and Omax taking all the minutes. Sure, they all CAN play other positions. But they play this one too.
Luka Maxi/Omax
Let's say we roll with Luka, Maxi and Omax.
Against Gianis, would you trust Omax and Luka?
Against Banchero? JJackson?
Kawhi's a big SF, maybe Omax and Luka can handle him? No?
Zion?
Finesse players like Lauri and Kat, I think Luka/Omax might be able to put on some resistance, but the power guys would put a stress on Luka and Omax.
I guess the Mavs can slide down Holmes and DP to guard the bigger, bulkier forwards. But I don't trust those two, specially DP. He plays good positional defense, but most fans know he gets burned time and again by guys willing to take him head on.
I'm sure Maxi provides the best match.
But Maxi isn't durable enough, thus the Mavs need at least one more guy.
It's this reason why PJ Washington should be the main target. Maybe he won't be Maxi-ish in D, but he'd be an able body better than a rookie and a defensively challenged superstar.
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The Philly situation is one of the best reasons to hang onto our assets. Unless Morey can pull a rabbit out of hat, Embiid could easily be the next superstar on the move. Lively, Hardy and 3 first round picks. Whatever swaps. Embiid is friendly with Luka and Kyrie from what I’ve gathered.
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(07-04-2023, 11:45 PM)MarkAguirreWrathofGod Wrote: The Philly situation is one of the best reasons to hang onto our assets. Unless Morey can pull a rabbit out of hat, Embiid could easily be the next superstar on the move. Lively, Hardy and 3 first round picks. Whatever swaps. Embiid is friendly with Luka and Kyrie from what I’ve gathered. Holy cow, plan powder at it’s worst. At least with Giannis we had a date that we knew something was gonna happen.
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(07-04-2023, 10:15 PM)F Gump Wrote: It looks to me like you're assuming Holmes isn't getting the TK, yes? If so, you're making it too hard on the Zubac front. Without the TK, you can already absorb Zubac in the Bertans/Holmes deal, with no outgoing salary and without doing anything else.
And the THJ for PJW swap could be a simple standalone deal too.
But as you noted, finding a home for McGee or Holmes (and maybe even both) is almost certainly a necessary part of the equation if Zubac is being added.
Thanks for the clarity of thinking. I’ve got too many possibilities running through my head. Some where he takes the TK and some where he can’t. Some where I’m trying to preserve the MLE and some where I’m spending the dollars in a trade. I’ve even got some things where I’m trying to make two trades with equivalent money going in and out in both and still preserving the MLE or part of the MLE. So, my mind isn’t as clear as it would be if the possibilities were narrowed a bit.
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07-05-2023, 08:06 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-05-2023, 09:02 AM by F Gump.)
(07-05-2023, 06:05 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Thanks for the clarity of thinking. I’ve got too many possibilities running through my head. Some where he takes the TK and some where he can’t. Some where I’m trying to preserve the MLE and some where I’m spending the dollars in a trade. I’ve even got some things where I’m trying to make two trades with equivalent money going in and out in both and still preserving the MLE or part of the MLE. So, my mind isn’t as clear as it would be if the possibilities were narrowed a bit.
Yeah, I get it. Ever since the Bertans deal was agreed without being executed, the possibilities to consider get really confusing, with extra trade spread available and being used or not, a TK included or not, with RFA snt or not (most of which have the potential for BYC issues), with an apron to duck or not (making overall math an issue), an MLE to use or not, and all the new rules. That idea of adding to the Bertans deal is something we have looked at over and over, because it seems so logical they might use that ability to take salary as a trade "asset" but there are a lot of moving parts.
Speaking of moving parts, I know we have talked about busting the Apron, but seems to me the odds of the Mavs doing that are incredibly small, because almost everything they would want to do would force that Apron hard cap. Use the MLE to do an offer sheet to a RFA? Need the MLE, which means must stay below the apron. Sign a UFA player with the MLE? Must stay below the Apron. Sign-and-trade for an MLE player? Must stay below the apron. Add to the Bertans trade and use the extra salary spread to facilitate the deal? Must stay below the apron. Do a different trade with a wide salary spread to take back extra salary and facilitate the deal? Must stay below the apron. If they don't do ANY of those, it's tough to do anything at all.
Yes it would be an aggravation to them to have a hard cap restriction, but they're some ways away from it, and to me it sure looks like they need the extra operating latitude they get to spend below it.
....EDITED TO ADD: The one scenario in which busting the Apron might be a helpful option would be if they use Wood as an outgoing sign-and-trade chip. That adds whatever such a trade brings back to their salary total (since nothing is outgoing that is on our totals now) and likely takes them beyond the Apron. But I'm guessing they would not consider that unless the return for Wood was a player who is really needed.
As a general concept, I have to think the Mavs have a McGee salary dump lined up, as needed, to facilitate a deal in multiple ways -- they send him out with money preferably (or a pick), and do that to a 3rd team as part of a deal for a player. That accomplishes multiple purposes all in one small move: it clears out a center, it opens up more room under the Apron, and at the same time serves as salary matching. It can be piggy-backed on ANY deal, of course, but it can be a standalone if that works better.
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Mavs have a tough job on being able to land this plane. I am having difficulty finding clear matches on some of the RFA and trades. Trades tend to come out of left field, so I hope they have stuff working. I also want to lower my expectations in trades because you typically need to feel some pain when you acquire someone worthwhile in trade. mavs spare parts offer very little Mav Pain imo.
For me, the two biggest musts for the rest of the offseason are:
1) Find a starting level PF that fits what they have been looking for this offseason. IE guys who can impact games besides being a guy who needs to score. Hopefully this player is not a stop gap and is a guy we can view here out 2-3 years.
2) Is Holmes capable playing 25 minutes a night for a playoff caliber team? He may not be asked to play this much, but I think 25 minutes is a good benchmark. If the answer is no, Dallas needs to have a secondary move somehow.
Maybe you can find a nice spare part in addition, but that is secondary from finding a starting PF now and making sure you are comfortable with the center rotation.
While this probably won’t make us a contender, it does keep flexibility, gives Luka a shot with players who support him well and gives us an opportunity to search for that final move where we could float a player, pick, and possibly young player as the bait.
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(07-05-2023, 08:06 AM)F Gump Wrote: As a general concept, I have to think the Mavs have a McGee salary dump lined up, as needed, to facilitate a deal in multiple ways -- they send him out with money preferably (or a pick), and do that to a 3rd team as part of a deal for a player. That accomplishes multiple purposes all in one small move: it clears out a center, it opens up more room under the Apron, and at the same time serves as salary matching. It can be piggy-backed on ANY deal, of course, but it can be a standalone if that works better.
I wonder if the backup plan regarding McGee is stretch waive. I know there are unknown variables, but would that potentially create the room they need to get the full MLE/BAE?
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(07-05-2023, 08:40 AM)mvossman Wrote: I wonder if the backup plan regarding McGee is stretch waive. I know there are unknown variables, but would that potentially create the room they need to get the full MLE/BAE?
You would think that there could be a scenario where that makes sense. But imo they would consider it their worst option (since they have to pay for it for 4 more years), and it would only be a backup plan. And probably only would get triggered if they have something vital that depends on it, and are backed into a corner, although a standalone trade does open up even more room and doesn't keep hitting their cap in future years and is less expensive for Cuban (which doesn't matter to us, but certainly is a factor with him).
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07-05-2023, 09:52 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-05-2023, 09:52 AM by HoosierDaddyKid.)
(07-04-2023, 11:45 PM)MarkAguirreWrathofGod Wrote: The Philly situation is one of the best reasons to hang onto our assets. Unless Morey can pull a rabbit out of hat, Embiid could easily be the next superstar on the move. Lively, Hardy and 3 first round picks. Whatever swaps. Embiid is friendly with Luka and Kyrie from what I’ve gathered.
Embiid is worth a way better package than that. Look what Gobert got for Utah, and he's not even close to being the player Embiid is. Morey would laugh you off the phone.
https://twitter.com/esidery/status/1676577055280967681
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(07-05-2023, 09:52 AM)HoosierDaddyKid Wrote: Embiid is worth a way better package than that. Look what Gobert got for Utah, and he's not even close to being the player Embiid is. Morey would laugh you off the phone.
https://twitter.com/esidery/status/1676577055280967681
I don't disagree, but I don't think we should use the Gobert trade is a measuring stick. I think that trade is already considered a disaster from an asset standpoint. Between that massive overpay and the new CBA I think the pendulum has already swung the other way.
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(07-05-2023, 08:19 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: Mavs have a tough job on being able to land this plane. I am having difficulty finding clear matches on some of the RFA and trades. Trades tend to come out of left field, so I hope they have stuff working. I also want to lower my expectations in trades because you typically need to feel some pain when you acquire someone worthwhile in trade. mavs spare parts offer very little Mav Pain imo.
For me, the two biggest musts for the rest of the offseason are:
1) Find a starting level PF that fits what they have been looking for this offseason. IE guys who can impact games besides being a guy who needs to score. Hopefully this player is not a stop gap and is a guy we can view here out 2-3 years.
2) Is Holmes capable playing 25 minutes a night for a playoff caliber team? He may not be asked to play this much, but I think 25 minutes is a good benchmark. If the answer is no, Dallas needs to have a secondary move somehow.
Maybe you can find a nice spare part in addition, but that is secondary from finding a starting PF now and making sure you are comfortable with the center rotation.
While this probably won’t make us a contender, it does keep flexibility, gives Luka a shot with players who support him well and gives us an opportunity to search for that final move where we could float a player, pick, and possibly young player as the bait.
Holmes giving 20+ quality minutes would be ideal, but if our starting power forward is PJ, then even if Holmes is useless you could cobble together a much better center rotation than last season between Maxi/PJ/Lively/Powell.
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(07-05-2023, 09:56 AM)mvossman Wrote: I don't disagree, but I don't think we should use the Gobert trade is a measuring stick. I think that trade is already considered a disaster from an asset standpoint. Between that massive overpay and the new CBA I think the pendulum has already swung the other way.
Fair enough. That Gobert trade happened before the new CBA which changes everything.
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(07-05-2023, 10:01 AM)mvossman Wrote: Holmes giving 20+ quality minutes would be ideal, but if our starting power forward is PJ, then even if Holmes is useless you could cobble together a much better center rotation than last season between Maxi/PJ/Lively/Powell.
Good point. A big wing allows much more flexibility. Finding that big wing this free agency is the tricky part.
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Wow! You guys are making the game of basketball much better for me--and I'm sure for others. I've been mostly stuck as a stone age driveway point guard. Now....well I'm still that, but I'll be able to appreciate the play on the floor better now. I also appreciate these discussions very much. Thanks!
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If Mavs land Thybulle this is the current 15 man roster:
Doncic (24) - Curry (32) - Exum (27)
Irving (31) - Hardy (21) - THJ (31)
Thybulle (26) - Green (22)
GWill (24) - Kleber (31) - Prosper (21)
Holmes (29) - Lively (19) - Powell (31) - McGee (35)
2-way:
PG: McKinley Wright IV (24)
SG: AJ Lawson (22)
PG: Mike Miles Jr. (20)
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(07-05-2023, 10:02 PM)Smitty Wrote: 2-way:
PG: McKinley Wright IV (24)
SG: AJ Lawson (22)
PG: Mike Miles Jr. (20)
3 way battle for the small guard: PG: Wright IV / Miles / Walker, who wins this?
I think AJ Lawson is a lock at wing
The third spot, I'd like the Mavs to go for a C, maybe not Bingham, but someone else's summer league roster.
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Definitely need to add a center on the trio of terror or should we call it the 3 man crew or tres hombres. tres 2 ways, triple penetrators or maybe we call them the three ways.
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(07-05-2023, 10:38 PM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: 3 way battle for the small guard: PG: Wright IV / Miles / Walker, who wins this?
I think AJ Lawson is a lock at wing
The third spot, I'd like the Mavs to go for a C, maybe not Bingham, but someone else's summer league roster.
It is so refreshing to see the total shift in roster building mentality. Cuban has clearly stepped out of the room…and I will happily give him credit for that even if it’s long overdue.
It’s not just limited to the draft and approach to FA/trades either. There actually seems to be real thought going into the 2-way guys as well. Miles, Wright and Jelly are likely battling to be the 2-way guard as you said. I agree Lawson is the guy as the 2-way wing. Dudley has had good things to say about him and he flashed a bit last year.
That 3rd 2-way could easily turn into a big especially if one of the guards just runs away from the other two.
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07-05-2023, 11:37 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-05-2023, 11:37 PM by The Jom.)
(07-04-2023, 10:58 PM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: Let's say we roll with Luka, Maxi and Omax.
Against Gianis, would you trust Omax and Luka?
Against Banchero? JJackson?
Kawhi's a big SF, maybe Omax and Luka can handle him? No?
Zion?
Finesse players like Lauri and Kat, I think Luka/Omax might be able to put on some resistance, but the power guys would put a stress on Luka and Omax.
I guess the Mavs can slide down Holmes and DP to guard the bigger, bulkier forwards. But I don't trust those two, specially DP. He plays good positional defense, but most fans know he gets burned time and again by guys willing to take him head on.
I'm sure Maxi provides the best match.
But Maxi isn't durable enough, thus the Mavs need at least one more guy.
It's this reason why PJ Washington should be the main target. Maybe he won't be Maxi-ish in D, but he'd be an able body better than a rookie and a defensively challenged superstar.
Kinda moot now. But let me say I agree with you. Same problem when it was Dirk. Had to put a versatile SF and C next to him and let him defend the lesser threat. Didn’t mean Dirk wasn’t a PF.
The solutions I see are (1) Luka starts defending, which is really the only way the Mavs sniff another Larry, and (2) need long, versatile defenders everywhere else besides the Batman and Robin positions, which looks a lot like what they’ve been doing this offseason.
Pessimism doesn’t make you smart, just pessimistic.
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