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07-11-2023, 06:55 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2023, 06:58 AM by omahen.)
(07-11-2023, 02:49 AM)F Gump Wrote: Be that as it may, they do want Siakam -- and if they need to replace Capela with something else to do so, and the Mavs are the one place they have to go to make it happen, then the terms should be quite favorable. Right?
The question is, who else (if anyone) would be willing to take Capela for them right now? Or are we the only game in town?
Because I think what I'm asking is not a deal-killer if we are the taker for Capela, and their prize is Siakam.
Where the hole in your thinking in my opinion is, is in the wording "we are taking Capela". But really we are not. We are just replacing his salary with (at best) equal value salary of THJ and even throwing in McGee. You even want young player in addition. This doesn't add any value to Atlanta and Toronto trying to execute the Siakam trade, as Toronto has as much of use of THJ as they do of Capela. They have GTj on their roster, who is basically a much younger THJ. I guess Toronto would be willing to take Capela (or THJ), but with assets added to do that. Or Capela is dumped to salary cap space team with asset from Atlanta to reduce salary going to Toronto. What Atlanta would be looking for from Dallas would be the assets (draft assets, young player) going to Toronto for them to take back long term THJ salary they don't need. Alternative could be if Dallas finds a way to only ship McGee to Toronto, greatly reducing the salary they get. But this requires more pieces being sent to another team.
The question in negotiations is, what those assets from Dallas to Toronto would be. I think 2 SRP is not enough to provide value as a third team.
Also, I think Atlanta can do the trade without Capela. If I am not mistaken, Hunter, Bey and Mills is enough salary for the trade. The open part are the assets going to Toronto, and just to repeat, here is where Atlanta is looking for value from Dallas.
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(07-11-2023, 06:55 AM)omahen Wrote: Where the hole in your thinking in my opinion is, is in the wording "we are taking Capela". But really we are not. We are just replacing his salary with (at best) equal value salary of THJ and even throwing in McGee. You even want young player in addition. This doesn't add any value to Atlanta and Toronto trying to execute the Siakam trade, as Toronto has as much of use of THJ as they do of Capela. They have GTj on their roster, who is basically a much younger THJ. I guess Toronto would be willing to take Capela (or THJ), but with assets added to do that. Or Capela is dumped to salary cap space team with asset from Atlanta to reduce salary going to Toronto. What Atlanta would be looking for from Dallas would be the assets (draft assets, young player) going to Toronto for them to take back long term THJ salary they don't need. Alternative could be if Dallas finds a way to only ship McGee to Toronto, greatly reducing the salary they get. But this requires more pieces being sent to another team.
The question in negotiations is, what those assets from Dallas to Toronto would be. I think 2 SRP is not enough to provide value as a third team.
Also, I think Atlanta can do the trade without Capela. If I am not mistaken, Hunter, Bey and Mills is enough salary for the trade. The open part are the assets going to Toronto, and just to repeat, here is where Atlanta is looking for value from Dallas.
This morning I planned on logging in and saying pretty much this exact thing. You’ve hit the nail on the head!
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David Lord
@David_Lord_2020
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7h
The latest widespread buzz in NBA circles is a TOR-ATL Siakam deal needing someone to take Capela to push it over the line (with Mavs being prominently mentioned as the most viable solution).
As with all trade ideas, what happens from here will hinge on relative prices & values.
https://twitter.com/David_Lord_2020/stat...6349450244
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(07-11-2023, 06:38 AM)surfpuckmd Wrote: I've brought up Derrick Jones Jr several times here. I think he's the best fit as a small-ball four. Athletic enough to switch onto guards and generally a strong defender and energy guy off the bench. He has improved his 3-point shooting and would likely shoot even better on the open looks he'd get from playing with Luka and Kyrie. He's clearly available for cheap and possibly even the vet minimum. I think we'd be wise to offer him above the minimum with a second year team option. Something like 2 years, $9 million total.
The other player who could work here is Darius Bazley. He is already a very good NBA defender. His defensive RAPTOR was 3.0 last season which puts him in elite company. His defensive rating was 110.8 last season which is pretty good. For comparison, Finney Smith was 117 last year (lower is better). Marcus Smart last year was at 111.7. Anyway, Bazley is already a very good defender. Solid rebounder for a four. He also has a 7-foot wingspan. He can cover the perimeter and provides good rim protection (2 blocks per 36 minutes)
I'll add to that Javonte Green and Kenrich Williams as guys I'd like to see here.
We just paid a whole lot of money to a guy that went 9-29 (31%) on FG and 3-20 (15%) 3-pt% in both our win or go home elimination games last couple of playoffs. SMH
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(07-10-2023, 09:24 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: We would want our best defenders on their best offensive players
Jokic - Maxi/GWill/Lively
Murray - Green
Gordon - GWill/OMax
MPJ - Luka
KCP - Kyrie
No, I was comparing defensive roles, not dong matchups. This is defense vs defense. I used DEN because they had the best team def rtg and were of course the champs.
So using DEN as an example defensively...
Green... KCP
G.Will... Gordon
Kyrie... Murray
Luka... MPJ
Powell et al... Jokic
To compare the two, we're lacking...
Green < KCP
G.Will < Gordon
Kyrie = Murray
Luka < MPJ
Powell et al <<< Jokic
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Do we have any TPE left over? Or is that gone? If we have some left over, how much do we have?
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07-11-2023, 08:53 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2023, 08:58 AM by DanSchwartzgan.)
(07-11-2023, 08:42 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: Do we have any TPE left over? Or is that gone? If we have some left over, how much do we have?
$4,953,980 from Bertans minus Holmes.
FWIW, I think we are $4.5mm under the tax, but we don’t have final numbers on Kyrie, Seth or Williams
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07-11-2023, 10:33 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2023, 10:54 AM by RasheedsBigWhiteSpot.)
So ATL sends Capela and Bey (who fits into the TPE) to Dallas
Dallas replaces Bey with Green to Tor. Tor also receives McGee, 2027 FRP (top 5 protected or else becomes a 2nd), plus an additional SRP. They also still get Hunter and that third piece from ATL.
Atlanta receives THJ and Siakam.
In effect, Dallas is injecting draft capital in the deal for Atlanta to get the deal done.
Dallas gets Capela, Bey & Jalen Johnson
Atlanta gets Siakam and THJ
Toronto gets Hunter, Green, Mills, McGee, 2027 FRP (top 5 protected), SRP
The salaries are almost perfectly neutral.
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07-11-2023, 10:40 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2023, 10:41 AM by StrandedOnBeauboisHill.)
(07-11-2023, 08:26 AM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: No, I was comparing defensive roles, not dong matchups. This is defense vs defense. I used DEN because they had the best team def rtg and were of course the champs.
So using DEN as an example defensively...
Green... KCP
G.Will... Gordon
Kyrie... Murray
Luka... MPJ
Powell et al... Jokic
To compare the two, we're lacking...
Green < KCP
G.Will < Gordon
Kyrie = Murray
Luka < MPJ
Powell et al <<< Jokic
Denver was actually ranked 15th last year in team defense and I think 4th in the playoffs, just a heads up.
Having said that I don't disagree with most of these comparisons although I would say if this is just defense comparisons you're giving a little too much credit to Jokic and MPJ there. I would also say that Green is capable of becoming the level of defender KCP is, just isn't there yet.
Another thing is that I don't think this board is truly appreciating the level of defender GWill is. I absolutely love Aaron Gordon and think he's a better overall player because of what he brings on offense and believe he's a truly great defender but I also feel GWill is on that level. I think this board sees him as a career bench player without taking into consideration he was playing on a team with 2 all nba wings.
On the hoop collective the other day they dropped a stat that mentioned there were only 11 players last year that logged 750 matchups against all three categories of bigs, wings and guards. The 5 they mentioned were Draymond, Bam, Giannis, JJJ...and GWill. Aaron Gordon was guessed and I was surprised to learn he was not one of those 11 players (I also wished they listed all 11 because I really wanted to learn if DFS was on that list). Just feel the need to point out that we're getting one of the more versatile defenders in the entire league with GWill. The stuff he did on the eastern conference championship run against Giannis and KD is really impressive. Lots of clips out there of him holding his own against Embiid and Jokic.
He doesn't solve all our problems but he's a big step in the right direction.
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(07-11-2023, 10:33 AM)RasheedsBigWhiteSpot Wrote: So ATL sends Capela and Bey (who fits into the TPE) to Dallas
Dallas replaces Bey with Green to Tor. Tor also receives McGee, 2027 FRP (top 5 protected or else becomes a 2nd), plus an additional SRP. They also still get Hunter and that third piece from ATL.
Atlanta receives THJ and Siakam.
In effect, Dallas is injecting draft capital in the deal for Atlanta to get the deal done.
I would swap J.Green for Bey every day and twice on Sunday. I would imagine, however, that TOR would want Bey instead of Hunter. But, if the bball gods smiled upon us, it'd be...
Luka, Hardy, Exum
Kyrie, Curry
Bey, THJ
G.Will, Maxi
Capella, Powell, Lively
Even though I'm not a huge Capella fan, I'd do this deal.
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Guys, Saddiq Bey is not that good.
Dude is a chucker shooting 36% from deep for his career and not a great defender.
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(07-11-2023, 10:40 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: Denver was actually ranked 15th last year in team defense and I think 4th in the playoffs, just a heads up.
Having said that I don't disagree with most of these comparisons although I would say if this is just defense comparisons you're giving a little too much credit to Jokic and MPJ there. I would also say that Green is capable of becoming the level of defender KCP is, just isn't there yet.
Another thing is that I don't think this board is truly appreciating the level of defender GWill is. I absolutely love Aaron Gordon and think he's a better overall player because of what he brings on offense and believe he's a truly great defender but I also feel GWill is on that level. I think this board sees him as a career bench player without taking into consideration he was playing on a team with 2 all nba wings.
On the hoop collective the other day they dropped a stat that mentioned there were only 11 players last year that logged 750 matchups against all three categories of bigs, wings and guards. The 5 they mentioned were Draymond, Bam, Giannis, JJJ...and GWill. Aaron Gordon was guessed and I was surprised to learn he was not one of those 11 players (I also wished they listed all 11 because I really wanted to learn if DFS was on that list). Just feel the need to point out that we're getting one of the more versatile defenders in the entire league with GWill. The stuff he did on the eastern conference championship run against Giannis and KD is really impressive. Lots of clips out there of him holding his own against Embiid and Jokic.
He doesn't solve all our problems but he's a big step in the right direction.
I can't disagree with anything you've stated. DEN was #1 in DefRtg, which I realize isn't the gold standard. I think G.Will is a really good defender, and yes may have more defensive range than Gordon, but Gordon is superior within his range. Yes, Green has the tools to become KCP. IMO, Jokic is an underrated defender. Also IMO, MPJ is an overrated defender (below average yet doesn't have that rep), but still better than Luka.
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(07-11-2023, 10:46 AM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: I would swap J.Green for Bey every day and twice on Sunday. I would imagine, however, that TOR would want Bey instead of Hunter. But, if the bball gods smiled upon us, it'd be...
Luka, Hardy, Exum
Kyrie, Curry
Bey, THJ
G.Will, Maxi
Capella, Powell, Lively
Even though I'm not a huge Capella fan, I'd do this deal.
Again you have left us without a point of attack defender. A lineup with Luka/Kyrie/Bey will struggle to be even average defensively.
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(07-11-2023, 10:52 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: Guys, Saddiq Bey is not that good.
Dude is a chucker shooting 36% from deep for his career and not a great defender.
Percentages are heavily influenced by Detroit´s attempts to turn him into the next Paul George/Paul Pierce. Tanking his percentages. Mavs wouldn´t ask him to create for himself or take contested 3s.
Looking at his role on a team with better creators his short stretch with the Hawks was really promising. Same for his rookie season.
40.2% (5.3 attempts) on catch and shoot 3s in his rookie season.
39.6% (4.2 attempts) post allstar break (after the trade) this season.
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(07-11-2023, 11:04 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: Percentages are heavily influenced by Detroit´s attempts to turn him into the next Paul George/Paul Pierce. Tanking his percentages. Mavs wouldn´t ask him to create for himself or take contested 3s.
Looking at his role on a team with better creators his short stretch with the Hawks was really promising. Same for his rookie season.
40.2% (5.3 attempts) on catch and shoot 3s in his rookie season.
39.6% (4.2 attempts) post allstar break (after the trade) this season.
That's fair but let me present is this way:
would you rather gamble on the defensive minded player in Green to be able to scale his shooting volume up while keeping his efficiency which was also at 40% last year
or
gamble on a player who has been up and down with his shooting to retain good shooting form because of Luka (fair bet) AND become the defender that we need on the wing
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(07-11-2023, 10:52 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: Guys, Saddiq Bey is not that good.
Dude is a chucker shooting 36% from deep for his career and not a great defender.
Eek. I thought he was a MUCH better defender than he is. I have him ranked as the 107th best wing defender. I have Hunter at 60th, but has a $20m contract.
HARD PASS ON ATL.
I'm back on the T.Eason and Z.Collins train.
Luka, Hardy
Kyrie, Curry
Green, Eason
G.Will, Maxi, OMax
Z.Collins, Powell, Lively
Defense:
POA - Green, Eason
Covers best F - G.Will, Maxi, Eason
Covers best G - Green, Kyrie
Covers C - Z.Collins, Powell, Lively
Covers worst F - Luka
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Josh Green is a superior to Saddiq Bey in literally every facet of basketball. Dribbling, passing, finishing, defending, shooting, rebounding, conditioning. And he is on another level as an athlete.
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07-11-2023, 11:17 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2023, 11:18 AM by Ghost of Podkolzin.)
(07-11-2023, 11:04 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: Percentages are heavily influenced by Detroit´s attempts to turn him into the next Paul George/Paul Pierce. Tanking his percentages. Mavs wouldn´t ask him to create for himself or take contested 3s.
Looking at his role on a team with better creators his short stretch with the Hawks was really promising. Same for his rookie season.
40.2% (5.3 attempts) on catch and shoot 3s in his rookie season.
39.6% (4.2 attempts) post allstar break (after the trade) this season.
That's fair. Even his 36% doesn't scare me for his 2nd year, given the league average is 37%.
What scares me is his defense.
(07-11-2023, 11:16 AM)MarkAguirreWrathofGod Wrote: Josh Green is a superior to Saddiq Bey in literally every facet of basketball. Dribbling, passing, finishing, defending, shooting, rebounding, conditioning. And he is on another level as an athlete.
I see that now. I was reacting to his reputation rather than his actual production.
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07-11-2023, 11:21 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2023, 11:42 AM by F Gump.)
(07-11-2023, 08:53 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: $4,953,980 from Bertans minus Holmes.
FWIW, I think we are $4.5mm under the tax, but we don’t have final numbers on Kyrie, Seth or Williams
Kyrie is 37,037,037 (from comments shared by a trusted league source) -- with a slight possibility it is written as $37M exactly.
The contracts for neither Seth nor G Will have been executed yet.
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Ghost— I would love Eason, just doubt that Houston wants to move him. Are shot would’ve been if they just had to move up for a guy at 10 in this draft. Zach Collins is probably much more gettable, though he is an always injured guy. Who knows though? I have a feeling SA will try to field a playoff contender this season and they may see him being a positive in that light. They can always deal him at the deadline if he has a nice first half of the season if their season goes south.
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