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+--- Thread: I know we're not winning the chip this year... (/showthread.php?tid=977)
I know we're not winning the chip this year... - embellisher - 05-06-2021
... but Carlisle slowly working Green into meaningful minutes is kind of reminiscent of him putting Stevenson into the lineup in 2011.
Admittedly it was at the behest of veteran players, but still, Rick put a guy who hadn't played very much that season into a starting role for toughness and defense. And DSteve helped us win a championship with his grit, D, and some timely three point makes.
I know Green isn't starting, and probably won't this season because Duffy, but...
What do you guys think?
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - ClutchDirk - 05-06-2021
Green should get some of Jr's minutes and fill in at SF when DFS is playing PF...
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - ClutchDirk - 05-06-2021
Also being able to say we hit on a draft pick is rewarding also..
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - embellisher - 05-06-2021
(05-06-2021, 09:49 PM)ClutchDirk Wrote: Green should get some of Jr's minutes and fill in at SF when DFS is playing PF...
Take 15 of JR's minutes, take 5 of 3 guard lineup minutes, 5 SF minutes when DFS sits or plays PF, there's 25 minutes, and the only real loser is JR.
And the winner? Probably the Mavs!
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - DanSchwartzgan - 05-06-2021
This scenario reminds me of another rookie brought along slowly but valuable late in the season once upon a time. I just can't put my finger on who/when.
I would not play him in the first playoff game, but would in the next 15
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - dynamicalVoid - 05-06-2021
(05-06-2021, 09:46 PM)embellisher Wrote: ... but Carlisle slowly working Green into meaningful minutes is kind of reminiscent of him putting Stevenson into the lineup in 2011.
Admittedly it was at the behest of veteran players, but still, Rick put a guy who hadn't played very much that season into a starting role for toughness and defense. And DSteve helped us win a championship with his grit, D, and some timely three point makes.
I know Green isn't starting, and probably won't this season because Duffy, but...
What do you guys think?
Why is Green just now getting minutes? Was he being hidden for playoffs? Something clicked with him?
Are Mavs planning on playing him and actually trying to see how far they can get? Or...is he a back up plan in the event JRich lays a stinker in the first game or two?
I kind of side with JRich agent on this if Mavs arent serious this year. I would avoid taking money out of JRich and Duffy's pockets if you arent serious about winning this year. But if Green gets serious minutes it kind of seems like they are trying to take the year/playoffs seriously.
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - embellisher - 05-06-2021
(05-06-2021, 10:02 PM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: Why is Green just now getting minutes? Was he being hidden for playoffs? Something clicked with him?
Are Mavs planning on playing him and actually trying to see how far they can get? Or...is he a back up plan in the event JRich lays a stinker in the first game or two?
I kind of side with JRich agent on this if Mavs arent serious this year. I would avoid taking money out of JRich and Duffy's pockets if you arent serious about winning this year. But if Green gets serious minutes it kind of seems like they are trying to take the year/playoffs seriously.
I think RC is serious about winning a playoff series this year, and realized he needed to shake things up a bit.
On many nights the Mavs are playing with very little energy, not defending hard, and JR has been the weakest link in the starting lineup many times.
I think Green has shown enough that RC feels like he can bring energy and defense, and not make a bunch of rookie mistakes.
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - dynamicalVoid - 05-06-2021
(05-06-2021, 10:07 PM)embellisher Wrote: I think RC is serious about winning a playoff series this year, and realized he needed to shake things up a bit.
On many nights the Mavs are playing with very little energy, not defending hard, and JR has been the weakest link in the starting lineup many times.
I think Green has shown enough that RC feels like he can bring energy and defense, and not make a bunch of rookie mistakes.
Hopefully we go at it this year. Last year I felt the last two playoff games we werent trying to win.
I would like to see Green and Powell play with the starters some in the Playoffs. I assume Powell is starting now?
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - Scott41theMavs - 05-06-2021
(05-06-2021, 10:02 PM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: Why is Green just now getting minutes? Was he being hidden for playoffs? Something clicked with him?
Are Mavs planning on playing him and actually trying to see how far they can get? Or...is he a back up plan in the event JRich lays a stinker in the first game or two?
I kind of side with JRich agent on this if Mavs arent serious this year. I would avoid taking money out of JRich and Duffy's pockets if you arent serious about winning this year. But if Green gets serious minutes it kind of seems like they are trying to take the year/playoffs seriously.
I'll take the rare role of an RC apologist and say that the coaches were likely working with Green behind the scenes, and he finally got to a point in practice where he deserved a shot - and we are seeing the results.
The homer in me wants to think that's what happened, and in this case, given how raw he looked earlier in the season, I think it's also likely the case.
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - ThisIStheYear - 05-06-2021
Green has just really improved. He was so frenetic early in the year. I’ve never seen so much wasted, uncontrolled motion. Now, he looks like he has purpose. I was wrong about the Mav’s rookies being a bust. I think they have something with this pick. He’s only 20.
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - BolsDamols - 05-06-2021
I agree with the spirit of your post, hopefully you're wrong on one thing
"I know we're not winning the chip this year"
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - cow - 05-06-2021
Counterpoint: We are winning a chip this year
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - SleepingHero - 05-07-2021
(05-06-2021, 09:50 PM)ClutchDirk Wrote: Also being able to say we hit on a draft pick is rewarding also..
I'm not willing to say Green is a hit just yet. But he has been super promising over the last couple of weeks. I thought he was a fringe bench player before, but after that MIA game I see the potential. If he ever gets a shot he can be something in this league.
The Green pick will always be a bit of a sore spot for me because Saddiq Bey was right there.
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - KillerLeft - 05-07-2021
I went into this matchup assuming that Green would not play, because I would not have played him. I spent most of the day mentally preparing myself to read all of the hatred I was sure would get spewed onto this board about that, ESPECIALLY if they lost.
To my surprise, Carlisle actually gave the kid a chance, and to my even bigger surprise the kid handled the opportunity pretty damn well. I think it’s safe to say he’s starting to figure some things out. Good for him, and good for the staff who has been working with him.
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - F Gump - 05-07-2021
(05-06-2021, 10:13 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: I'll take the rare role of an RC apologist and say that the coaches were likely working with Green behind the scenes, and he finally got to a point in practice where he deserved a shot - and we are seeing the results.
This. ^
The idea some here have that young raw players must be played, because they can only develop and improve in games, is so wrong.
The NBA games are played at a very high skill level, and it makes no sense to play players who are outmatched. Nor do teams with high expectations want to waste games (and possible wins) on players who just aren't that ready. So they work with them off the court, in a slew of ways, to improve their game, and THEN use them.
Some have the talent and work ethic to develop faster than others. The Mavs, to their credit, apparently believed he had it in him, and it's just starting to pay some dividends. He's come a long way since early in the season. His offense is still a work in progress, but he has picked up a feel for how to impact the game on defense, with energy, and in the little things, all of which can be useful.
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - KillerLeft - 05-07-2021
(05-07-2021, 02:15 AM)F Gump Wrote: The idea some here have that young raw players must be played, because they can only develop and improve in games, is so wrong.
The NBA games are played at a very high skill level, and it makes no sense to play players who are outmatched. Nor do teams with high expectations want to waste games (and possible wins) on players who just aren't that ready. So they work with them off the court, in a slew of ways, to improve their game, and THEN use them.
Some have the talent and work ethic to develop faster than others. The Mavs, to their credit, apparently believed he had it in him, and it's just starting to pay some dividends. He's come a long way since early in the season. His offense is still a work in progress, but he has picked up a feel for how to impact the game on defense, with energy, and in the little things, all of which can be useful.
I couldn’t agree more with the above or @"Scott41theMavs"’s post that you quoted if there was a million dollar prize offered. In fact, I’d argue that throwing a player to the wolves before he’s ready can actually be detrimental to his development, especially on a team where the rest of the locker room expects to win. Confidence is key.
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - F Gump - 05-07-2021
KL you make a great point.
I think it's a synergystic balance that has to be found, in that the player has to learn how he can do what it takes, and the coach has to learn that he can trust the player to do X and not do Y.
These guys were all stars at lower levels, but if you're going to be a role player in the NBA, you really have to find your lane and ALSO show the ability and willingness to stay in it. The coach has to be able to trust you, to know he can get what you have to offer without having to worry whether you will try to be Luka and mess up the game for your teammates.
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - DanSchwartzgan - 05-07-2021
(05-07-2021, 01:58 AM)KillerLeft Wrote:
To my surprise, Carlisle actually gave the kid a chance, and to my even bigger surprise the kid handled the opportunity pretty damn well. I think it’s safe to say he’s starting to figure some things out. Good for him, and good for the staff who has been working with him.
Not just any minutes...4th quarter minutes. Recall we were down 83-82 after three. In 4:17 he got two steals, two boards and had a made basket (and played really good D) and left with the game tied. It is huge if the team can hold its own at this stage of the game while your starters catch a break before the stretch run.
Yeah, I'm also surprised it has taken Carlisle so long to figure this out. I mean Green just killed it in Summer League and by all accounts he had a fantastic training camp. Oh, wait.
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - HanspardsShowerVoice - 05-07-2021
The 2 best franchises in the league at player development are Miami and Denver, imho. RJ Hampton was getting virtually no minutes before Denver threw him in the Gordon trade and Precious Achiuwa has played around 2 mpg in his last 4 games. He only plays now when Spoelstra runs out of warm bodies because Miami has no other choice with injury and COVID issues. Smart organizations just dont throw underdeveloped players out there just because. Green is getting more play now because he's gradually shown he can handle it.
RE: I know we're not winning the chip this year... - Mavs2021 - 05-07-2021
Ah the beauty of rookies and the Mavs fanbase tunnel vision. Of course the Mavs handle all rookies correctly.
Two outcomes:
Green plays and sucks, then Carlisle was/is justified in his opinion to not play him.
Green plays and rocks, then Carlisle developed him properly and picked the correct moment to unleash him.
So Carlisle was correct either way.
Of course it´s impossible to prove that Green could have contributed in a positive manner earlier or better than another rotational player without him actually playing. That he would be much further in his development etc. etc.