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RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 05-13-2021
(05-13-2021, 08:56 AM)michaeltex Wrote: To me, a 7-game playoff series is a whole different animal than most regular season games. The teams get to know one another and establish what does and doesn't work. I think this lets KP get into a comfort zone and better understand what he needs to do to help win.
This is an excellent point.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - HanspardsShowerVoice - 05-13-2021
(05-12-2021, 07:03 PM)F Gump Wrote: And I am saying that's a fail.
The reality is, there is no "what it is" as to his value. That's what you're not seeing.
Market or trade value is all perception, and negotiation, and tease, and salesmanship. Market value is what you make it, to a significant degree. You have to define the market value by your expectations - and then work to get even more.
Those who want to just take "whatever is being offered" don't get that. And maybe the Mavs don't either, as their negotiating results have always felt weak compared to other teams. But if there's a unicorn on the market, you need to let teams know you want unicorn values in return. Some will walk because they are hoping you're in "take any offer we can get mode", but others will figure out how they can meet that cost - and those are your buyers.
Other NBA Franchises are run by full time evaluators who do this for a living 24/7/365 too. And with the proliferation of front offices run by former acolytes of Morey and Bufford and Myers, the average median NBA front office is smarter than ever. There's not really any Isiah Thomas GMs running things anymore. Even the Knicks have a top level front office.
The idea you can just talk them into ignoring reality with a sales pitch is well ... a bit of wishful thinking fantasy. A sales pitch isn't going to change the fact that he's had numerous lower leg injuries, and even after multiple surgeries to improve structural issues he's still having to miss games for chronic knee pain. He's likely got Chandler Parsons sized red flags all over his medical evaluations around the league now, and a playoff performance isn't going to change it.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 05-13-2021
(05-13-2021, 09:55 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: @"KillerLeft" I am not against the idea of KP being traded but saying he's been really bad this year is overstating the case against KP, to say the least. I don't care for his fit which we have discussed ad nauseam but he has still been productive, despite shortcomings on defense in particular. All that to say Mavs are not in some kind of dump situation with KP which some on the board might be inclined to believe.
He's a max player, and the last time I saw the +/-, the team was getting outscored by an average of 7.5 points while he was on the floor. A max player. The highest paid player on the team.
If that's not a terrible season, then I'm not sure what we're doing here.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - StepBackJay - 05-13-2021
(05-13-2021, 10:03 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: He's a max player, and the last time I saw the +/-, the team was getting outscored by an average of 7.5 points while he was on the floor. A max player. The highest paid player on the team.
If that's not a terrible season, then I'm not sure what we're doing here.
Okay that is one stat, he is also 20/9. So teams will like that. I am just saying he's not a guy you have to just dump. I would be okay with seeing another year of KP under the right circumstances or trading him.
A few trade ideas:
- Graham, Rozier trade we have discussed and I would add moving MR for Brunson as an additional move
- Some kind of GSW trade, possibly 3 team. I am not sure Mavs would be crazy ab the stuff GSW would have to offer directly in a 2-way
- A Pacers trade whereby Mavs receive Brogdon and one of Turner or Warren.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - StepBackJay - 05-13-2021
A challenge for any KP trade is that the Mavs FO will not want to "lose" the trade which in my mind would be any package that doesn't include a player they could sell as a star or at upper tier starter.
Brogdon is a target (but depends on Indy shaking up their roster) bc of his fit and I think it's not hard for the MBT to sell him as a budding star. Even that is a bit of a stretch bc KP still has the name ID and reputation as a star player. Most realistic packages for him do not include a legit star coming back (and how could they?) so we are in a bit of a bind there.
I think a Brandon Ingram trade would qualify and makes some sense if that were to materialize.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - dirkfansince1998 - 05-13-2021
(05-13-2021, 10:49 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: Okay that is one stat, he is also 20/9. So teams will like that.
Kevin Love averaged 18/10 on better efficiency last season.
Enes Kanter averaged 19/11 in his first season with the Thunder.
Jonas Valanciunas averages 17/12.5 this season.
Julius Randle averaged 21/9 on better efficiency in 2019 and no one was willing to give him a big contract.
Boxscore production alone isn´t enough. In the modern NBA bigmen with questionable defense aren´t as valuable.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 05-13-2021
(05-13-2021, 10:49 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: Okay that is one stat, he is also 20/9. So teams will like that. I am just saying he's not a guy you have to just dump. I would be okay with seeing another year of KP under the right circumstances or trading him.
I agree with this, and with @"F Gump", about not having to "just dump" him. I'm simply trying to establish that the player has not been a help to the team this season.
Hey, I'm on my yacht, ready to travel back to KP island if/when he gives us a reason to believe in him. Obviously, the best way forward is for he and the team to figure out how to make his time here a positive. We're ALL still hopeful that can happen, and if he shows us something in the playoffs, I might be ok with having him back next season, too. Excited, even.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - StepBackJay - 05-13-2021
Ya like I said I could go either way on him. I think he will look good in the playoffs. Definitely open to trading him bc I am not crazy ab the fit but I want a good package back. The MBT I am sure will still want a "win-now" package in any kind of KP trade bc they don't want to take a step back.
As currently constructed this team should be competing for a top 4 seed next year, so one has to ask with any trade does it raise their ceiling both short term and long term?
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - michaeltex - 05-13-2021
KP is a key big in the DAL rotation, whatever anyone thinks of his fit and productivity. You can't just swap him for a couple of 3D wings. There has to be a clear path to another big with good enough skills to fill those minutes or there will be significant hole in the lineup. You'd probably see the return of RC's beloved 3-guard lineup.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 05-13-2021
(05-13-2021, 12:33 PM)michaeltex Wrote: You'd probably see the return of RC's beloved 3-guard lineup.
This never went away, it's just that one of those guards is 6'8", 240 lbs now.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - F Gump - 05-13-2021
(05-13-2021, 10:02 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: Other NBA Franchises are run by full time evaluators who do this for a living 24/7/365 too. And with the proliferation of front offices run by former acolytes of Morey and Bufford and Myers, the average median NBA front office is smarter than ever. There's not really any Isiah Thomas GMs running things anymore. Even the Knicks have a top level front office.
The idea you can just talk them into ignoring reality with a sales pitch is well ... a bit of wishful thinking fantasy. A sales pitch isn't going to change the fact that he's had numerous lower leg injuries, and even after multiple surgeries to improve structural issues he's still having to miss games for chronic knee pain. He's likely got Chandler Parsons sized red flags all over his medical evaluations around the league now, and a playoff performance isn't going to change it.
Nope.^ Not really relevant to what I was saying. Mostly just your straw man.
While it's true that "NBA Franchises are run by full time evaluators who do this for a living 24/7/365," one of the murkiest issues is answering the question "What is the RELATIVE value of each player in the league?" Those evaluators, all looking for an edge, each have their own way of weighing that question. And in contrast to what you are imagining, their evaluations can be all over the map.
I'm not saying you can just set any price you want, of course. You can't expect to get all-star value out of a 3rd stringer who can barely get off your bench.
But KP has star value, and star valuation, as part of who he is. And your list of nicks isn't definitive for anyone as to what those mean. The question, that you don't know, is how much those matter. You cite Chandler Parsons, and ignore "the rest of the story" -- despite all the red flags, he got max dollar, max year deals, with other teams wanting to do the same.
If you trade KP, you don't have any use for the team that wants to pay the consensus value, or the one that says he's junk and wants him at half price. There will be teams willing to take the risk, because The Unicorn and he might be a difference-maker for them. And you should price him accordingly.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - MFFL - 05-13-2021
(05-13-2021, 12:33 PM)michaeltex Wrote: KP is a key big in the DAL rotation, whatever anyone thinks of his fit and productivity. You can't just swap him for a couple of 3D wings. There has to be a clear path to another big with good enough skills to fill those minutes or there will be significant hole in the lineup. You'd probably see the return of RC's beloved 3-guard lineup.
A 3 guard lineup doesn't bother me. A 3 guard lineup where they are all under 6'3" makes me tired
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - StepBackJay - 05-13-2021
(05-13-2021, 01:20 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: This never went away, it's just that one of those guards is 6'8", 240 lbs now.
Ya in some lineups but with the latest lineup DFS is a wing and we actually have 2 bigs on the floor again.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - BolsDamols - 05-13-2021
(05-13-2021, 01:20 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: This never went away, it's just that one of those guards is 6'8", 240 lbs now.
6'5", 250 - I trust Jalen's word on this
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - ThisIStheYear - 05-15-2021
Zinger just had easily the best offensive season of his career. 20 points per game at nearly 58% true shooting with high usage ain’t bad at all. He’s usually at about 55% true shooting, so that’s a meaningful leap forward. He even looks better on offense — much better and quicker elevation in his post game, for example. It’s kind of inexplicable to me how he can show increased athleticism on offense while it’s decreased defensively. I was in the trade Zinger camp because it seemed he didn’t want to be here and wouldn’t accept his role, but Im starting to think that’s mostly just hype. After all, whatever role this is, just produced the best offensive numbers of his career. It’s an enigma. The injury issue and the defensive fit with Luka are real problems though. I can go either way at this point. It’s a reasonable risk to hold on to him for awhile to see if he can build his trade value to 85% on he dollar.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - StepBackJay - 05-15-2021
(05-15-2021, 09:52 AM)ThisIStheYear Wrote: I can go either way at this point. It’s a reasonable risk to hold on to him for awhile to see if he can build his trade value to 85% on he dollar.
I definitely would not sell low but I expect him to look pretty good in the playoffs, at least offensively. I also really do believe he has another gear both offensively (more aggressive PnR rolling, screens) and defensively than he has shown. The reason I believe that is we have seen a handful of big games where it's clear he is giving full effort and has been good this year. We have seen that Luka gets really hyped for big games and lazy against bad teams. This has been true for many other Mavs players.
All that to say if KP turns in a good playoff performance it might be a great opportunity actually to sell high on him knowing that physically he is going to continue to have issues if Mavs hold onto him.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - sefant - 05-17-2021
Quote:One stat to watch
Doncic has formed a strong partnership with Porzingis, especially on pick plays. According to Second Spectrum, the Mavericks have averaged 1.18 points per direct pick when Doncic is the ball handler and Porzingis is the screener. That is the most efficient combination in the league among duos to run 300 picks. -- Matt Williams
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - MFFL - 05-17-2021
(05-13-2021, 10:02 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: Other NBA Franchises are run by full time evaluators who do this for a living 24/7/365 too. And with the proliferation of front offices run by former acolytes of Morey and Bufford and Myers, the average median NBA front office is smarter than ever. There's not really any Isiah Thomas GMs running things anymore. Even the Knicks have a top level front office.
There aren't any franchises who are being run by GMs who are on the hot seat? Nobody who has a "Make the playoffs or you're fired" directive from the home office?
I'm pretty sure that those GMs will make a swing for the fences type move since they have nothing to lose
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - StepBackJay - 05-17-2021
KP has to make it through this series healthy. Last year's experience is good for him to avoid techs.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 05-17-2021
(05-17-2021, 08:24 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: KP has to make it through this series healthy. Last year's experience is good for him to avoid techs.
I mean, I definitely agree, but I just want to point out that he ALSO needs to play WELL. It's so easy to let our expectations slide to the lowest possible denominator with this guy, but he's a max player. He, along with Luka, need to be the reason the team wins and gets out of the first round. I KNOW Luka is going to show up. We'll see about KP.
I know you know all of this, @"StepBackJay", so it's not directed at you. Just saying.