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RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - dynamicalVoid - 05-12-2021
(05-12-2021, 11:43 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: For sure playoffs are the be all end all of discussion, however, the player has to be uninjured for all of the playoffs. Klay isn’t doing anything for the Warriors and hasn’t for 2 years. I’d rather not take the chance that KP gets to that point. I do believe healthy KP is most of what this team needs, just don’t like worrying when the next injury is gonna happen. This is why I trade him as soon as we get a deal that is at or above the value we sent out to get him.
The Klay argument puts in into perspective a little more. 30M in street clothes during playoffs? Yikes.
Im looking at it from a standpoint of...if KP does ball out in Playoffs again....he is a true Unicorn in this League. You probably will not get a Unicorn back in a trade. Making your path to the Championship harder. Risk aversion is a real thing though.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - SleepingHero - 05-12-2021
(05-12-2021, 11:52 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: Go to work with 67.5m in capspace.
I don't know why we would trust this front office rebuilding through free agency at all.
10 years of moves that range from mediocre to failures with maybe 2 bright spots tells me we should remove the free agency button from Donnie/Cubes/Rick and force them to build through trades and draft.
Remember when Cubes said "After Kemba fell through our first call was to Delon Wright" And then they traded 2 seconds for him. Sheesh.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 05-12-2021
(05-12-2021, 11:52 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: This is something I really don´t get. The Knicks trade is done. Sunk costs no matter what. Yes it would be nice to get some value in return for KP but if he isn´t the right player for the Mavs I wouldn´t wait for a big offer that might never come. Take the L and move on.
Even a pure salary dump (hard to do with limited capspace around the league) wouldn´t be the end of the world. Trade KP (try to attach Burke). Renounce all capholds and decline all options. Go to work with 67.5m in capspace.
I agree with every word, with the exception of including Burke. Maybe I'm reading into your words too much, but you make it seem like he's some sort of albatross.
Burke is obviously not some untouchable asset, but he IS on a value contract, and while he hasn't had the season I hoped he would, he really only needs 4-5 great games to hold up his end. He has certainly not been consistent this year (bummer), but he has been a bright spot at times and brings things to the table that nobody else on this roster can. He's paid like someone not meant to be in the rotation, but to be ready when needed, and he has basically done that this season. I would be excited about that deal again if we could go back in time, knowing what we know now.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - jesusshuttlesworth82 - 05-12-2021
Yall are both right. I dont trust Mavs with cap space but I dont think you're getting some nice haul for KP. If you decide he doesnt fit, you can't sit around waiting to get some sweetheart deal that aint coming.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 05-12-2021
(05-12-2021, 12:07 PM)jesusshuttlesworth82 Wrote: If you decide he doesnt fit, you can't sit around waiting to get some sweetheart deal that aint coming.
Damn right. The only remaining variable in this basic application of logic is the "if" at the beginning of the statement. We don't know which way the Mavs are inclined about that "if," or even if they've started trying to decide yet. But, "if" they decide he's not right for the team, then holding onto him as he sits out, getting paid more than anyone else on the roster, just because of some stuff you sent to NY a couple of years ago seems counterproductive and silly to me.
Just get on with building a team that can compete. Living in the past serves nothing.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - Chicagojk - 05-12-2021
(05-12-2021, 11:35 AM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: Genuine question...
If KP balls out like in the Bubble...he shows signs that the Mavs have coached him up in certain areas...hes more aggressive on boards, sets better pix, plays solid defense....
If he looks like a bona-fide Max player...one that can produce in a Playoff atmosphere...
Do we move this guy?
That is the million dollar question...or the 150 million dollar question. Whatever the answer, the Mavs can't mess it up. Finding fits next to Luka has been a little more difficult than I imagined for multiple reasons. But some of their misses have been role players. You can find those every year or upgrade from them. It is a much different complex equation when you talk about the talent and salary of players like KP. You can't mess those decisions up.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - ItsGoTime - 05-12-2021
(05-12-2021, 11:54 AM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: The Klay argument puts in into perspective a little more. 30M in street clothes during playoffs? Yikes.I don’t actually want another high end player. I think at this time in Luka’s career, he needs a bunch of high end team players. Guys that don’t have any kind of ego to soothe. Guys who can be pockets in Batman’s utility belt (some more used than others) as opposed to Robin.
Im looking at it from a standpoint of...if KP does ball out in Playoffs again....he is a true Unicorn in this League. You probably will not get a Unicorn back in a trade. Making your path to the Championship harder. Risk aversion is a real thing though.
Trading KP and JB for Turner and Brogdon (can be a 3 team trade if Ind doesn’t see KP as a fit) I think gets us close to the same on court value, but better fitting parts that can help raise the roof on this team’s ceiling. Those two have their fair share of injury history as well, so there is risk there too.
This team will be fine if they keep KP (and actually could be great with a pretty good offseason), they could also be fine to great with a trade of KP that at least gets the value back we sent out. Sending him out and getting same to better value still leaves us with options to fill out the roster this offseason.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - dirkfansince1998 - 05-12-2021
(05-12-2021, 12:07 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I agree with every word, with the exception of including Burke. Maybe I'm reading into your words too much, but you make it seem like he's some sort of albatross.
Burke is obviously not some untouchable asset, but he IS on a value contract, and while he hasn't had the season I hoped he would, he really only needs 4-5 great games to hold up his end. He has certainly not been consistent this year (bummer), but he has been a bright spot at times and brings things to the table that nobody else on this roster can. He's paid like someone not meant to be in the rotation, but to be ready when needed, and he has basically done that this season. I would be excited about that deal again if we could go back in time, knowing what we know now.
Just want to clear more roster spots and I would prefer to keep the younger guys. I don´t think Burke is doing anything that a random vet min signing couldn´t do (Yogi Ferrell).
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - ItsGoTime - 05-12-2021
(05-12-2021, 11:52 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: This is something I really don´t get. The Knicks trade is done. Sunk costs no matter what. Yes it would be nice to get some value in return for KP but if he isn´t the right player for the Mavs I wouldn´t wait for a big offer that might never come. Take the L and move on.Two things, first, it’s not about recouping what we lost to get him at all. It’s about getting the value he has, you and some others thinks that value is nil, others (I believe including the FO) believe that is pretty high. No fan knows for sure.
Even a pure salary dump (hard to do with limited capspace around the league) wouldn´t be the end of the world. Trade KP (try to attach Burke). Renounce all capholds and decline all options. Go to work with 67.5m in capspace.
Second, the FO, I don’t believe, thinks the way you are. The egg on their face from trading KP for peanuts and then he has a career year and becomes the allstar we all know he CAN be is something they will think about when making the decision.
Bottom line, he really isn’t the demon you and others have made yourselves believe he is.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - dirkfansince1998 - 05-12-2021
(05-12-2021, 12:47 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Bottom line, he really isn’t the demon you and others have made yourselves believe he is.
Demon? I am talking about basketball. We have enough stats, data, video breakdowns and our own eyetest to make a call on his on court impact. This season there really is no way to dispute that the Mavs have been a better team when KP is on the bench. I don´t care about anthying else. Don´t know what is going on on this board but for some reason this is turning into some kind of Dr. Phil episode.
(05-12-2021, 12:47 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Two things, first, it’s not about recouping what we lost to get him at all. It’s about getting the value he has, you and some others thinks that value is nil, others (I believe including the FO) believe that is pretty high. No fan knows for sure.
No fan knows for sure but you know what Cuban and Donnie discuss behind closed doors. Right....
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - SleepingHero - 05-12-2021
(05-12-2021, 01:06 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: . Don´t know what is going on on this board but for some reason this is turning into some kind of Dr. Phil episode.What Dr. Phil episode talks in depth basketball? I'm down to watch it if its like that...
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 05-12-2021
(05-12-2021, 12:47 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Two things, first, it’s not about recouping what we lost to get him at all. It’s about getting the value he has, you and some others thinks that value is nil, others (I believe including the FO) believe that is pretty high. No fan knows for sure.
If the argument is: "get the most value possible for Porzingis IF you trade him," then I don't think there will be any opposition from anyone here. We all want that. You're 100% right that expectations of that value vary from person to person, and that we won't know for sure until he's traded, if he ever even is.
The part I disagree with is the scenario wherein A) it is decided the player needs to go, but B) they shouldn't move him because they aren't happy with the value being offered in return. It's all hypothetical (to us), but that, specific set of hypothetical circumstances seems looney to me. If he's not helping the team, get off of him and put that salary to work in a more productive way. Yes, it will suck if you can't get as much as you once assumed you would in return, but that's just reality (IN that specific set of circumstances).
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - Kammrath - 05-12-2021
(05-12-2021, 01:06 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: We have enough stats, data, video breakdowns and our own eyetest to make a call on his on court impact. This season there really is no way to dispute that the Mavs have been a better team when KP is on the bench. I don´t care about anthying else.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - F Gump - 05-12-2021
(05-12-2021, 02:32 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: If the argument is: "get the most value possible for Porzingis IF you trade him," then I don't think there will be any opposition from anyone here. We all want that. You're 100% right that expectations of that value vary from person to person, and that we won't know for sure until he's traded, if he ever even is.
The part I disagree with is the scenario wherein A) it is decided the player needs to go, but B) they shouldn't move him because they aren't happy with the value being offered in return. It's all hypothetical (to us), but that, specific set of hypothetical circumstances seems looney to me. If he's not helping the team, get off of him and put that salary to work in a more productive way. Yes, it will suck if you can't get as much as you once assumed you would in return, but that's just reality (IN that specific set of circumstances).
Too many here are advocating to "take whatever offer you get, and move on" based on the belief that KP has no NBA value, to the Mavs or anyone else, and they have to hope for a taker. In their mind, any return is a good deal.
That's just absurd.
If you decide you want to move him, you only get great value when you demand great value. And to some team, perhaps quite a few, a KP who might be ill-fitting in Dallas could be the piece they feel they have been waiting for. Tease, talk, dangle, bargain, let buyers figure out how much better KP will be on their team, let them compete to meet your price and more. The mindset should be to "negotiate for a good deal" and refuse to settle for less. Unicorns are expensive, EVERYONE knows that and starts with that mindset, and you're an idiot if you have a unicorn and only ask for scraps.
I'd equate it at the very least to the trades the Mavs made to move Antoine Walker and Antwan Jamison years ago. They were very talented players, who didn't fit. The Mavs looked for a return commensurate to how other teams valued those players, and they got it, rather than one based on the clunky fit in Dallas. They certainly didn't take "whatever they could get."
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - dynamicalVoid - 05-12-2021
(05-12-2021, 01:06 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: Demon? I am talking about basketball. We have enough stats, data, video breakdowns and our own eyetest to make a call on his on court impact. This season there really is no way to dispute that the Mavs have been a better team when KP is on the bench. I don´t care about anthying else. Don´t know what is going on on this board but for some reason this is turning into some kind of Dr. Phil episode.
No fan knows for sure but you know what Cuban and Donnie discuss behind closed doors. Right....
Ok...I know you guys know my stance on the Playoff being the benchmark to test a player...
But the comment above is what confuses me...
They are a better team...as in...you know for a fact that this team will play better in a Playoff atmosphere without KP?
Maybe I value Post-Season play too highly. But to say a team plays better without KP and it be about reg season stats doesnt fly with me.
KP has his flaws...but I think he is still a big time player in this league. To suggest a team will play better without a big time player in a Playoff setting is risky. You could be right.
I dont care how great of chemistry the team has reg season without KP. How do they look in Post-Season? When things start to matter in Post-Season...I would prefer to have a big time player in the League on my squad.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - dirkfansince1998 - 05-12-2021
(05-12-2021, 03:30 PM)F Gump Wrote: I'd equate it at the very least to the trades the Mavs made to move Antoine Walker and Antwan Jamison years ago. They were very talented players, who didn't fit. The Mavs looked for a return commensurate to how other teams valued those players, and they got it, rather than one based on the clunky fit in Dallas. They certainly didn't take "whatever they could get."
Nailed the player comparisation. At least when it comes to KPs impact this season.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - StepBackJay - 05-12-2021
I think I am floating towards the trade KP camp for now just because he is only available half the season but my opinion changes by the day. Everyone should agree that his performance in the playoffs will be a major factor if not the deciding factor for whether or not he gets traded.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - ItsGoTime - 05-12-2021
(05-12-2021, 01:06 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: No fan knows for sure but you know what Cuban and Donnie discuss behind closed doors. Right....Words mean something. I said "I believe", that isn't me saying I know. Do you believe they are thinking like you more than they are thinking what I said? I'd say the history we've seen with this FO puts them more on my side of this conversation.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - ItsGoTime - 05-12-2021
The only thing that breaks this all down is if behind closed doors KP has asked for a trade, but doesn't want the stigma attached to his name again that comes with going public with it so he is allowing the FO to figure out how to get the best possible deal for all involved. I've been thinking that could be a good possibility for a while now.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - dirkfansince1998 - 05-12-2021
(05-12-2021, 03:38 PM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: Ok...I know you guys know my stance on the Playoff being the benchmark to test a player...
But the comment above is what confuses me...
They are a better team...as in...you know for a fact that this team will play better in a Playoff atmosphere without KP?
Maybe I value Post-Season play too highly. But to say a team plays better without KP and it be about reg season stats doesnt fly with me.
KP has his flaws...but I think he is still a big time player in this league. To suggest a team will play better without a big time player in a Playoff setting is risky. You could be right.
I dont care how great of chemistry the team has reg season without KP. How do they look in Post-Season? When things start to matter in Post-Season...I would prefer to have a big time player in the League on my squad.
Let me go big picture. I don´t think Knicks KP was as good as some people want to make us believe. He was way better on defense (legit top 5 rim protector) but his offense was mediocre. Solid volume, below average scoring efficiency and no playmaking for others. The entire hype was based on KPs potential. A unicorn with deep 3-point range that could play like a guard on offense and dominate the paint on defense. It never translated to team success for the Knicks but the potential was obvious. In stretches KP was putting up outstanding numbers (25/10, 2+ blks, great shooting percentages). Overall he only had one season with above average 3-point shooting. This is the first season of his career with above average TS. He also struggled with minor injuries and faded as the season progressed (anemia related).
Don´t think the Mavs made a mistake when they traded for him. It was a gamble and in hindsight they probably would be more hesitant but at the time it was the right move.
And this is where it gets more complicated. I already mentioned that the entire KP hype was more about his potential (not his on court production). That hasn´t changed. The entire "Unicorn" fantasy sounds great but in reality he has clear limitaitons and instead of being a nightmare matchup for the opponent RC has to figure out ways to hide him on defense.
We are getting flashes (bubble last season) but overall he isn´t living up to his contract. Things could obviously change. Maybe he just needs to stay healthy and will take the next step within the next two years but that´s a big "maybe".
If the Mavs want to keep KP they are gambling on two things. Him staying healthy. Him improving as a player. I would gamble on his health if he would have Durant/Embiid/Davis impact. I would gamble on his development if he could stay healthy. He misses out in both cases. Not quite good enough to accept the big risk. Not healthy enough to expect big improvements.