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RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - Hypermav - 02-11-2021
(02-11-2021, 12:24 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: As far as defense goes, I'm just too scared of his inability to move well to be a believer.I read an Atlanta fan comparing him to an Ent from LOTR.
![[Image: ent-keeper-forest-18315254.jpg]](https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/ent-keeper-forest-18315254.jpg)
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - SleepingHero - 02-11-2021
(02-11-2021, 12:24 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: As far as defense goes, I'm just too scared of his inability to move well to be a believer. I don't think he'll ever be the guy everyone wants him to be on that end.
KL, what are you expecting KP to be on defense? He just had a game with 6 blocks in it with insane rim protection. Is your belief coming from because he isn't a good perimeter defender? If so, why are you holding him to that standard since almost every big sans maybe AD isn't a good perimeter defender at all.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - RDB - 02-11-2021
(02-11-2021, 12:39 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: KL, what are you expecting KP to be on defense? He just had a game with 6 blocks in it with insane rim protection. Is your belief coming from because he isn't a good perimeter defender? If so, why are you holding him to that standard since almost every big sans maybe AD isn't a good perimeter defender at all.
Not to butt in but I committed to support KL on KP if he supported me on Collins.
FWIW...he did have his 6 blocks against one of the worst teams who’s tallest player was 6’9.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - SleepingHero - 02-11-2021
(02-11-2021, 12:48 PM)RDB Wrote: Not to butt in but I committed to support KL on KP if he supported me on Collins.
FWIW...he did have his 6 blocks against one of the worst teams who’s tallest player was 6’9.
It's funny because I really like Collins too and can see him as a perfect foil to a KP/Luka duo. Having him would take a lot of pressure off Luka and also KP, allowing BOTH of them to shine better.
And sure his 6 blocks were against a bottom dweller, but he still went out there and did it. Just because he played well against a bad team shouldn't count against him and devalue his performance.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - KillerLeft - 02-11-2021
(02-11-2021, 12:39 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: KL, what are you expecting KP to be on defense? He just had a game with 6 blocks in it with insane rim protection. Is your belief coming from because he isn't a good perimeter defender? If so, why are you holding him to that standard since almost every big sans maybe AD isn't a good perimeter defender at all.
The Minnesota game was good for him, in terms of interior rim protection. He was guarding a smaller guy who didn't have much in his bag, and the opposing team didn't really do much to force KP away from the paint, meaning the journey involved with being in the paint at the same time as the ball was a really easy one, relative to other games. But, I'll give him credit for that one. You can only defend what the opponent is making you defend, after all, and he did his job that night.
In today's game, a center has to be able to COVER GROUND, going from the paint all the way out to show hard on a ball-handler coming off a screen, and then to recover to the screener who could be rolling, popping, whatever, and then if the screener is rolling, the 5 will sometimes have to get all the way out to the corner to contest a shot once he has taken the lob away. He MIGHT even have to make it back to the paint again after that.
OR, he can play in drop coverage, which is essentially creating a sort of one man zone in the paint. This puts a ton of pressure on the guard to be almost superhuman with their recovery time against certain players, and it STILL requires lightning fast reflexes from the 5, as he now has to face (possibly) a ball-handler AND a screener, both going downhill, and possibly even a back-door cutter. Not knowing which of those scenarios to prepare for, the guy whose quickness you're trying to hide by choosing this approach ends up even more screwed by a good offense, imo.
OR, you can just switch everything, which will result in Chris Paul going 1-on-1 in an iso situation against KP. We saw how that worked in the last PHX game (which was KP's best defensive effort of the season, imo). Not really an option with Porzingis.
This is why guys like DAJ and Drummond really shouldn't be in the league, and this is why teams are literally (this is not hyperbole) targeting Porzingis with their actions the entire time he's on the floor.
There are more 5's than Davis who can move well enough to be a force on defense. We just saw one last night in Capella. Gobert, Bam, Embiid (when he's playing hard, like this season). I'm not going to list them all, but there are plenty more. For KP to be a viable option as a foundational building block with his defensive shortcomings, he'd have to be as big of a deal on offense as Jokic, in my opinion. Is there ANY chance he ever reaches that level? I think not.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - KillerLeft - 02-11-2021
THIS is what dominant defensive center play looks like in the modern NBA:
https://twitter.com/MikePradaNBA/status/1306685854233047040?s=20
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - SleepingHero - 02-11-2021
AH
I see where you're coming from now. Okay. Sure if you're looking at KP through the lens of wanting him to be more like Bam/Gobert/Davis, then yeah I can see how you think KP's shortcomings are too great.
See I see him more like a better version of Brook Lopez. A guy that is a stout rim defender, can hit a 3 from wherever on the court, and has a slightly more potent offensive game overall. I'm not expecting KP to be like Bam because well, he's never been that in his career. He was never that in NYK, and I don't think he can magically gain the footspeed of those guys. Now where I think you and I deviate is I think despite his lack of perimeter mobility, KP can be the anchor for a championship team.
Also
(02-11-2021, 01:08 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: For KP to be a viable option as a foundational building block with his defensive shortcomings, he'd have to be as big of a deal on offense as Jokic, in my opinion. Is there ANY chance he ever reaches that level? I think not.
Not trying to be sarcastic , but KP quite literally averaged more ppg than Jokic last season. If we want to take his 2nd half from Jan-Bubble, KP averaged about the same ppg as Jokic is averaging this season. Meaning KP is already at that level of putting the ball in the hoop. Jokic is obviously more valuable because he can put the ball in the hoop and playmake like Luka. Thankfully we're not asking KP to do anything but put the ball in the hoop.
So if we're using your standard of being a foundational building block, he's already there isn't he?
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - KillerLeft - 02-11-2021
@"SleepingHero"
I don't hate KP. I was ALL IN on the trade, and the extension. No revisionist history here, and I want to make that clear.
And, I'm not saying the Mavs will never be a great team with him on the roster. What I AM saying (with a fair amount of confidence, now that I've seen him here for awhile) is that they'll never be a GREAT DEFENSE with him on the roster. That's because his CONTRACT dictates that nights like last night, when he was benched for defensive purposes, will be few and far between. A less established coach than Carlisle wouldn't have even considered making that choice, for fear of completely losing the team and his job. There's a misnomer that coaches decide who to play. They do and they don't. The roster is put together in a way that sort of predetermines a pecking order, and coaches accept jobs (and go into each new season) knowing which guys they have to put in situations to succeed. On THIS team, KP is absolutely "the product" and as long as he's here, last night's approach (which was SUCCESSFUL) will be an anomaly.
So, in my view, playing the logic out to its conclusion, the Mavs have backed themselves into a particularly tight corner with Porzingis. His physical shortcomings make "showing defensive effort" much more difficult for him than for other players. Even when he's fully healthy and fully engaged (those are ALSO major issues) there will be more and more nights as he ages when his feet/knees/legs just can't do what he needs them to do in order to do HIS job on defense. That means OTHER rotation players will have to be chosen based on their ability to make his weakness less detrimental to the team. This is what Denver is trying to do for Jokic now (losing Grant has hurt them) and what our Mavericks did for Dirk for years and years.
Think about it. He's a max contract player that you have to try and hide with other players. If he's Jokic or Dirk on OFFENSE, I'm in. He is not. When he's playing his best, he's only 1-2 levels below them, sure, but those 1-2 levels are IMPORTANT, and frankly, how often will we see his best?
Mix in the FACT that his contract is what has put a clock on the roster building efforts, and I see no way around this conclusion: KP was a mistake, and probably a dead end for the team. Again, I was ALL IN on him when it all went down, so this isn't intended to bash the MBT, as I was raising the pom-poms for them HARD at the time. I just can't deny what I'm seeing out there ever since.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - Jason Terry - 02-11-2021
(02-11-2021, 01:08 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: The Minnesota game was good for him, in terms of interior rim protection. He was guarding a smaller guy who didn't have much in his bag, and the opposing team didn't really do much to force KP away from the paint, meaning the journey involved with being in the paint at the same time as the ball was a really easy one, relative to other games. But, I'll give him credit for that one. You can only defend what the opponent is making you defend, after all, and he did his job that night.^excellent post that everyone should read. One thing is that even if KP doesn’t have the athleticism to cover out to the 3pt line and provide elite defense in all scenarios, we could still run a zone to combat that PnR in certain cases. We have the G/F personnel now to do it. Trap a player like Young using Maxi and Richardson or whoever. Then rotate around if Young beats the trap. Problem is even in these situations KP has looked like he can’t protect the rim. Too many easy layups and offensive rebounds for the opponent.
In today's game, a center has to be able to COVER GROUND, going from the paint all the way out to show hard on a ball-handler coming off a screen, and then to recover to the screener who could be rolling, popping, whatever, and then if the screener is rolling, the 5 will sometimes have to get all the way out to the corner to contest a shot once he has taken the lob away. He MIGHT even have to make it back to the paint again after that.
OR, he can play in drop coverage, which is essentially creating a sort of one man zone in the paint. This puts a ton of pressure on the guard to be almost superhuman with their recovery time against certain players, and it STILL requires lightning fast reflexes from the 5, as he now has to face (possibly) a ball-handler AND a screener, both going downhill, and possibly even a back-door cutter. Not knowing which of those scenarios to prepare for, the guy whose quickness you're trying to hide by choosing this approach ends up even more screwed by a good offense, imo.
OR, you can just switch everything, which will result in Chris Paul going 1-on-1 in an iso situation against KP. We saw how that worked in the last PHX game (which was KP's best defensive effort of the season, imo). Not really an option with Porzingis.
This is why guys like DAJ and Drummond really shouldn't be in the league, and this is why teams are literally (this is not hyperbole) targeting Porzingis with their actions the entire time he's on the floor.
There are more 5's than Davis who can move well enough to be a force on defense. We just saw one last night in Capella. Gobert, Bam, Embiid (when he's playing hard, like this season). I'm not going to list them all, but there are plenty more. For KP to be a viable option as a foundational building block with his defensive shortcomings, he'd have to be as big of a deal on offense as Jokic, in my opinion. Is there ANY chance he ever reaches that level? I think not.
Then the question becomes what CAN he do on defense if he can’t rebound, rim protect or guard out to the perimeter? That player is not worth max or the name “unicorn”
The biggest frustration I have is he was solid during the regular season last year. He’s been able a few games this year to give us that. So then why can’t he bring that every game? It becomes more about effort. Add that to the injury concerns and all in all there’s great question over how many nights a year we have a max level player
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - RDB - 02-11-2021
(02-11-2021, 01:37 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: AH
I see where you're coming from now. Okay. Sure if you're looking at KP through the lens of wanting him to be more like Bam/Gobert/Davis, then yeah I can see how you think KP's shortcomings are too great.
See I see him more like a better version of Brook Lopez. A guy that is a stout rim defender, can hit a 3 from wherever on the court, and has a slightly more potent offensive game overall. I'm not expecting KP to be like Bam because well, he's never been that in his career. He was never that in NYK, and I don't think he can magically gain the footspeed of those guys. Now where I think you and I deviate is I think despite his lack of perimeter mobility, KP can be the anchor for a championship team.
Also
Not trying to be sarcastic or facetious, but KP quite literally averaged more ppg than Jokic last season. If we want to take his 2nd half from Jan-Bubble, KP averaged about the same ppg as Jokic is averaging this season. Meaning KP is already at that level of putting the ball in the hoop. Jokic is obviously more valuable because he can put the ball in the hoop and playmake like Luka. Thankfully we're not asking KP to do anything but put the ball in the hoop.
So if we're using your standard of being a foundational building block, he's already there isn't he?
For me, it’s less about PPG and more about efficiency and KP is terrible for a big. I would add that advanced stats are not kind to KP when compared to Jokic:
OWS. DWS. WS. OBPM. DBPM. BPM. VORP
KP (5 yrs). 8.3. 9.9. 18.2. 1.2. -0.1. 1.6. 6.3
Jokic (6 yrs). 38.3. 15.6. 53.9. 5.5. 1.9. 7.4. 28.2
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - dirkfansince1998 - 02-11-2021
(02-11-2021, 01:37 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: See I see him more like a better version of Brook Lopez. A guy that is a stout rim defender, can hit a 3 from wherever on the court, and has a slightly more potent offensive game overall.
That´s a role player. Not a 2nd or 3rd option on a max contract. Not to mention that we have already seen KP in a less featured role (every single time he plays with a rim runner like WCS or Powell next to him) and he never looked happy or had a big impact on the game.
If the Mavs want to win with KP on his current contract he needs to be more than Brook Lopez 2.0. I am not willing to end the KP experiment. Even if he continues to struggle. As already mentioned...his trade value is at an all time low. Makes no sense to move him right now. But I also want to see what a full and healthy offseason can do for him.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - KillerLeft - 02-11-2021
Here's a video I came across last year that does a decent job at pointing out some subtle things that make Gobert superior to Whiteside. IMO, the creator of this video could've substituted KP for Whiteside and it would have been almost the same, exact watch.
https://youtu.be/VbGnvk23odA
Now, to play devil's advocate with myself: My entire view is based on the feeling that most of the problems KP is having on the defensive end are physical. He IS an intelligent person/player, so...IF they're really just the result of him not fully having regained his health, or not fully feeling confident in his knees, or not having had enough practice/off-season time to fully understand what Dallas' system requires of him, then I CAN imagine that he'll figure those things out over time. In other words, if a high percentage of his troubles are MENTAL, then I would bet on the combo of KP and Carlisle to work through that successfully. They're both too smart not to get that done.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - SleepingHero - 02-11-2021
(02-11-2021, 02:05 PM)RDB Wrote: For me, it’s less about PPG and more about efficiency and KP is terrible for a big. I would add that advanced stats are not kind to KP when compared to Jokic:
I was using PPG because KL specifically used Jokic as a comparison for scoring. Just taking into account putting the ball into the hoop KP is on the level of Jokic if not better. His efficiency is much lower which is valid, but I think also stems from the type of shots they take. Jokic is leaps and bounds better than KP overall and I wouldn't say otherwise.
(02-11-2021, 02:12 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: That´s a role player. Not a 2nd or 3rd option on a max contract. Not to mention that we have already seen KP in a less featured role (every single time he plays with a rim runner like WCS or Powell next to him) and he never looked happy or had a big impact on the game.
I'm not saying he's Brook Lopez 2.0. I'm saying he's the best possible version of Brook Lopez that there can be. Lopez used to be a 20/10 all-star guy. I think KP's ceiling is 25/9. He's gotten close a couple of times already.
It's hard getting into comparisons because it's all conjecture. I see yours, KL's, and everyone's points. They're valid concerns. I just think we're also focusing solely on KP's negatives and I think we're turning a blind eye to his positives.
Case in point:
(02-11-2021, 02:00 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: Then the question becomes what CAN he do on defense if he can’t rebound, rim protect or guard out to the perimeter? That player is not worth max or the name “unicorn”
I don't even know where this is coming from. KP is an elite rim protector. He was 10th in the NBA in rim defense. He's 6th right now in the NBA. He had 48 games last year with 2 or more blocks. He averaged a career high 9.5rpg and the Mavs as a team ranked 4th in total rebounds last year (Though advanced stats paint the team as a whole as an above average rebounding team not elite).
He can't guard the perimeter effectively consistently which is a valid criticism.
But you see what I mean regarding the rhetoric around KP? It's either he's apart of the future, or a garbage player that should be a 6th man if we're lucky. No in between.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - KillerLeft - 02-11-2021
(02-11-2021, 02:34 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: He can't guard the perimeter effectively consistently which is a valid criticism.
To me, it's not a question of "interior defense vs. guarding the perimeter" which I've tried over and over and over again to articulate and show with videos.
A defensive center must do BOTH. On the same play. That's the game now. Anyone who can't keep up with that is a dinosaur in today's game.
Other than the Minnesota game (worst team in the NBA, maybe) when was the last time you saw an opponent just work the ball slowly into the paint while KP is allowed to sit in a defensive posture, calmly waiting? Good teams don't play that way anymore.
Blocks for KP are nice, and that's great, but it's akin to claiming DAJ is a good player because of rebound totals.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - ItsGoTime - 02-11-2021
(02-11-2021, 02:20 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Here's a video I came across last year that does a decent job at pointing out some subtle things that make Gobert superior to Whiteside. IMO, the creator of this video could've substituted KP for Whiteside in this video and it would have been almost the same, exact watch.This has been my hope since seeing the negative side of KP. The issue is IF he gets that time due to injuries. We may NEVER see KP close to his ceiling due to that. The further he moves from his rookie contract, the more expectations are put on him to produce at or above his contract.
https://youtu.be/VbGnvk23odA
Now, to play devil's advocate with myself: My entire view is based on the feeling that most of the problems KP is having on the defensive end are physical. He IS an intelligent person/player, so...IF they're really just the result of him not fully having regained his health, or not fully feeling confident in his knees, or not having had enough practice/off-season time to fully understand what Dallas' system requires of him, then I CAN imagine that he'll figure those things out over time. In other words, if a high percentage of his troubles are MENTAL, then I would bet on the combo of KP and Carlisle to work through that successfully. They're both too smart not to get that done.
I haven't called any GMs around the league to gauge his trade value to know if it is at an all-time low, but if there isn't a trade that nets us at least a youngish (no older than, say, Beal) bonafide second fiddle with him, then there is no reason to trade him IMO. Just hope that he can stay healthy and get to that point.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - KillerLeft - 02-11-2021
(02-11-2021, 02:40 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: I haven't called any GMs around the league to gauge his trade value to know if it is at an all-time low, but if there isn't a trade that nets us at least a youngish (no older than, say, Beal) bonafide second fiddle with him, then there is no reason to trade him IMO.
Are you sure? No reason?
How will you feel if the Mavs haven't figured this out by the time Luka's rookie extension ends in five years and KP's contract has blocked them at every turn?
As tough as it might be to swallow, there ABSOLUTELY is still time to start over. It's not fun to think about because we all want good basketball NOW, but it's not like that's what we're getting. IF Porzingis is in the way of getting there, then I'd be WAY ok with a strategic step back to open up ways forward (while this choice is still possible).
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - ItsGoTime - 02-11-2021
(02-11-2021, 12:50 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: And sure his 6 blocks were against a bottom dweller, but he still went out there and did it.I love that he got 6 blocks in 1 game. I HATE that he got 0 blocks in the two surrounding games. That becomes an average of 2 bpg which is much less impressive, and very much a point in those talking about his effort game in and game out.
(02-11-2021, 02:43 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Are you sure? No reason?By the time Luka's 5 year extension has run out KP's contract will be in a newer (hopefully) responsibly priced range, or he'll be gone.
How will you feel if the Mavs haven't figured this out by the time Luka's rookie extension ends in five years and KP's contract has blocked them at every turn?
As tough as it might be to swallow, there ABSOLUTELY is still time to start over. It's not fun to think about because we all want good basketball NOW, but it's not like that's what we're getting. IF Porzingis is in the way of getting there, then I'd be WAY ok with a strategic step back to open up ways forward (while this choice is still possible).
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - KillerLeft - 02-11-2021
(02-11-2021, 02:45 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: By the time Luka's 5 year extension has run out KP's contract will be in a newer (hopefully) responsibly priced range, or he'll be gone.
Oh, for sure. But, I'm in the camp that loves continuity, remember? I think teams need to develop TOGETHER. I think the decisions being made now will have consequences that reach far into the future.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - ItsGoTime - 02-11-2021
(02-11-2021, 02:50 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Oh, for sure. But, I'm in the camp that loves continuity, remember?By Luka's 5 year into his extension, KP would be a big part of the continuity on the team.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis - KillerLeft - 02-11-2021
(02-11-2021, 02:56 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: KP would be a big part of the continuity on the team.
lol, yep. That's the worry.