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RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 11-24-2021
(11-24-2021, 05:19 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: I think that tune changes if he does what he's been doing for the last handful of games through all of December. I mean, since he's been back from injury he's been putting up 23.9/8.9/1.3 with 2.3 assists (nice!) on 57/37.7/93.2 shooting.
23-24 ppg alone gets him in the conversation.
I don't disagree but here's the thing (and this is why I felt inclined to take our bet, not my opinions of KP):
Who does he replace? Gobert? Davis? Jokic? I'd say all three of those dudes are going to be there, even if they all randomly decide to shoot only at their own baskets, scoring only points for the opposing team, between now and then.
I suppose you could argue that Zion being out provides a crack of an opportunity, but in my opinion he's in as long as he sees the court for a full two weeks beforehand. He's just so popular.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - Scott41theMavs - 11-24-2021
Such a mess, in a sense. Yes, it's wonderful and fun to see KP playing as well as he had since returning from injury, but how long until the next major one? Everyone here was melting down when he was out with the back, but let's be real; that's not in the same category as the ACL and the meniscus. He might be fine longterm. On the other hand, he may not. It feels like a crapshoot. The bottom line is, the team has to stay competitive this year as well as building for the future. I get the sense that the MBT's view is that KP playing like he is now for the rest of the year is the best-case scenario, unless someone offers them an offer-they-can't-refuse deal. Moreover, I think that they're likely to fall more and more in love with KP if he keeps playing this way, to the extent that they won't trade him for chemistry reasons, and that they turn down offers that every one of us (except maybe Clutch) would take in a heartbeat.
And, of course, the Mavs' historic Murphy's Law luck dictates that he'll be down with a season-ender (if not a Wall injury) the day after the deadline if they do that.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - ClutchDirk - 11-24-2021
For me to trade KP it would be a Dame level player...everything else is moving sideways or back...
Also remember how Tyson was never going to be reliable health wise...Mavs made the right gamble on him...sometimes luck changes for the better...
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - Mapka - 11-25-2021
(11-24-2021, 01:25 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Oh, i'm not so sure I buy that he's so valuable, just yet.
I agree that he's looking better and better lately - no doubt. But, he still can't guard against pick-and-roll teams down the stretch, and it's a pretty good bet that his next significant injury is right around the corner. Plus, look how far out of their way the team has had to go to get him to this level of impact.
I am simultaneously pleased with what the Mavs have been getting from KP lately and wishing he was not part of the team. I don't expect everyone to be there with me, but that's where I am, and it's not a bit.
I can't hear this "he can't guard a P&R" anymore .
No Center can defend against a good Pick, that forces a switch.
That’s why they do it.
And the few small ball centers that can defend on an island give up Tons of size.
Even if they can stand their ground to a real Center, they wear down pretty fast.
About going out of their way, I think it's more like going back to our way in having multiple ways.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - meistermatze - 11-25-2021
(11-25-2021, 12:44 AM)Mapka Wrote: I can't hear this "he can't guard a P&R" anymore .
No Center can defend against a good Pick, that forces a switch.
That’s why they do it.
And the few small ball centers that can defend on an island give up Tons of size.
Even if they can stand their ground to a real Center, they wear down pretty fast.
About going out of their way, I think it's more like going back to our way in having multiple ways.
Agreed, I mean even DPOY Gobert got forced off the court in some playoff-series.
KP looks just fine, even on the defensive end. I did not check the numbers but I am pretty sure he's a clear plus on that side of the ball. Correct me if I'm wrong.
KP overall looks even better than in the bubble, because he does not force things and he actually looks like he wants to be here. Way more positive attitude. I guess he's accepted his role as clear number two, since he's actually getting treated like the co-star and not some Kelly Olynik-tpe.
He looks mobile and healthy, also very "stable" if that makes sense. He just plays good basketball, right now.
problem is his health. I got excited about this dude so mane times only to be let down by his body. I can't take it anymore. If there's a deal on the table, you have to take it. His value is okay I would say. BUT Cuban and the Mavs won't settle for someone without a big name and a real big name won't come up. So we are stuck between making a bad deal or waiting for KP's next major injury which will demolish his trade value for good. I know I sound bitter bit it's just a sure thing, IMHO. Even without his history a dude this tall is a LOCK for injuries.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 11-25-2021
(11-25-2021, 12:44 AM)Mapka Wrote: No Center can defend against a good Pick, that forces a switch.
Well, for one thing, I'm not talking just about the "switch and iso" kind, I'm talking about a wide variety of approaches.
And for another, yes, there are some who can. Very well, in fact.
If you "can't hear it" anymore, I feel bad for you because I think it will be talked about quite a bit until they figure this out. It is literally the ceiling for them. Show me a plan that has a chance of working against a pick and roll team (conservatively, I'd guess 80% of the NBA) during the last five minutes of a close playoff game and I'll start to get excited about some of these other things he's doing well (because they're exciting!).
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - meistermatze - 11-25-2021
For instance, who can, Killer? Like I mentioned, even Gobert can get forced off the court it you attack him enough.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 11-25-2021
(11-25-2021, 04:21 AM)meistermatze Wrote: For instance, who can, Killer? Like I mentioned, even Gobert can get forced off the court it you attack him enough.
Adebayo can. That's the dream. Davis, when healthy and playing well. Theis, if you want a cheap option.
There are others in that same mold, and there are others closer to the KP mold (like Gobert) who do it better than KP does. I think it's fair to point out that even Gobert struggles with this issue, but maybe unfair to use that commonality to lump the two players together. Gobert will probably get played off of the floor again at some point deep in the playoffs, but I feel like it happens to KP much more frequently and against much less scary opponents. Plus, to even compare their impacts defensively when they're both playing well and not getting run out of the gym is pretty insulting to Gobert, imo. Gobert actually moves much faster on defense than Porzingis does, and can cover greater distances with efficient steps.
It's not even that I think (the current version of) Porzingis is terrible. When he's playing like he has this past two weeks, you want him on your team. I just don't see a way to justify him being the highest paid member of your team - a guy you're too scared to bench when Chris Paul decides to eviscerate him down the stretch, when everyone in the building knows KP can't do a thing about it. EDIT: And maybe this is the true problem, because there will be a time when Mavs success depends on KP sitting down the stretch against a certain team with a certain approach. Will Kidd do it? If he does, will KP throw a huge tantrum? I like that he's playing better right now (I REALLY do) but I think he's in denial about his place in the league and on the team.
I honestly don't think it pays right now to max out bigs - there are just too many ways it can bite you.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - meistermatze - 11-25-2021
So we are obviously not on different pages about the facts, just on how we perceive them. By this I mean I look at your post and am like "yes, that's what I am saying, very FEW players are, overall, better than KP so he can't be terrible" and you're like "nah, he's terrbile but so is almost everybody else".
Which means it boils down to what you writ ein the end, about maxing bigs out. I guess you are right, at the current state of the league and how the game is played.
BUT this is massive hindsight. I don't know if you were against trading for KP and maxing him out but I would be surprised if your rationale back than was this issue (kudos to you, if you foressaw that). Most concerns were health-related. But on a pure talent and impact level it was a no-brainer.
So I think it's unfair to point out that the league is exploiting bigs nowadays and maxing out players like this is not the way to go. We obviously know that NOW. But it does not help us in current debates, it is what it is.
The point you make about him sitting in certain situations is fair but I would also consider it to be fair to assume that he would. I mean he accepted his role in last year's playoffs when he was relegated to a freakin' decoy in the corner, not ever touching the ball. It's about communcation IF or WHEN we face a team that plays him off the floor. And I don't think he is as bad as you make him out to be, that he's a constant liability and gets played off the floor every other night.
Apologies if that's not what you are saying, but to me it sounds like "every big center sucks besides the really great ones." Which is both obviously true and not true at the same time, if that makes sense.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 11-25-2021
(11-25-2021, 05:27 AM)meistermatze Wrote: So we are obviously not on different pages about the facts, just on how we perceive them. By this I mean I look at your post and am like "yes, that's what I am saying, very FEW players are, overall, better than KP so he can't be terrible" and you're like "nah, he's terrbile but so is almost everybody else".
This isn't what I mean at all. I gave you three examples in the first sentence, just off the top of my head. To use your example, I would MUCH rather have Gobert than KP. It's not close.
I think Porzingis is one of the VERY worst 5's getting minutes in the NBA right now when it comes to moving his feet on defense and defending pick and roll stuff. Significantly below average, imo. I also believe there's a correlation between teams better than the Mavericks and solutions to this problem.
I do think he's doing SOME things very well on defense (lately).
I do not think his offense justifies his salary, which leads to a roster situation wherein he MUST be played when things matter, even when he's playing the way he has lately. Even when he's playing "well" I wouldn't call him efficient. I love the deep paint catches (though this is a new development, and we'll need to see how consistent it can be) and I love the downhill, short roll catches he gets from Luka/Brunson (though for whatever reason, this isn't utilized much) and I of course love the pick-and-pop stuff. But LITERALLY every time they throw it to him at the extended free throw line I wish they were doing something else, even when he makes the shot. It's so obviously not something that winning is built on. It doesn't remotely approach the kind of efficiency we used to see from Dirk in that area.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - meistermatze - 11-25-2021
Understood. I don't think he is as bad on defense as you think but that's different opnions, so fair enough.
You did not adress the hinsight factor though - did you
a) agree with the trade and extention when it happened?
b) did not agree with the trade and extention when it happenened due to health concerns
c) did not agree with the trade because you foresaw how the league was going to develop and that KP is not really playable as a max player due to his future terrible defense
If a) I think you should stop pointing out that it is wrong to built a team around a big like KP nowadays. Nobody (you included) saw that coming. We are stuck with his salary so no point in thinking about it.
if b) I think you should also stop pointing out that it is wrong to built a team around a big like KP nowadays. You objected to the trade but with different reasoning behind it.
If c) You have every right to point that out and kudos to your basketball knowledge.
Agreed on the efficiency part compared to Dirk, obviously.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - Mapka - 11-25-2021
(11-25-2021, 06:05 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: This isn't what I mean at all. I gave you three examples in the first sentence, just off the top of my head. To use your example, I would MUCH rather have Gobert than KP. It's not close.
If Theis is that good, why is he on the Rockets?
I give you Bam on the defensive side of the ball, but he is a roleplayer. He is like Green for GSW. He checks the defense or let´s say he is the defensive star. This kinda works because the Heat have their stars at other positions.
(11-25-2021, 06:05 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I think Porzingis is one of the VERY worst 5's getting minutes in the NBA right now when it comes to moving his feet on defense and defending pick and roll stuff. Significantly below average, imo. I also believe there's a correlation between teams better than the Mavericks and solutions to this problem.
I think you are stuck in his early performance last year.
(11-25-2021, 06:05 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I do think he's doing SOME things very well on defense (lately).
I do not think his offense justifies his salary, which leads to a roster situation wherein he MUST be played when things matter, even when he's playing the way he has lately. Even when he's playing "well" I wouldn't call him efficient. I love the deep paint catches (though this is a new development, and we'll need to see how consistent it can be) and I love the downhill, short roll catches he gets from Luka/Brunson (though for whatever reason, this isn't utilized much) and I of course love the pick-and-pop stuff. But LITERALLY every time they throw it to him at the extended free throw line I wish they were doing something else, even when he makes the shot. It's so obviously not something that winning is built on. It doesn't remotely approach the kind of efficiency we used to see from Dirk in that area.
That´s like saying you don´t want Luka to take threes because he isn´t Steph Curry.
We are 10Mio under the tax-line. His salary hasn´t bothered us one bit.
I think him, AD and Jokic are the only Centers good enough to be a 1 or 2 on a contender.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - Kammrath - 11-25-2021
KP in the last 4 games....
24.8 pts, 8.8 rbd, 3.0 ast, 1.0 stl, 1.5 blk
Offensive On/Off: +5.3
Defensive On/Off: +8.5
Net On/Off: +13.7
Net when KP played: +2.2
Net when KP sat: -11.5
So in four road games against PHX and LAC (two very good teams), it seems that KP's impact has been as good as at any point in his whole career (pretty sure on this, but didn't go back to verify). The team outscored the opponent when he played and got destroyed when he didn't. Most importantly the D gave up only 102.2 pts/100 possessions when he played (which is equivalent to being the #2 D in the whole NBA).
This is the single most promising stretch I have seen from KP. It is only 4 games, but I will be watching this trend closely.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - dynamicalVoid - 11-25-2021
Sorry to get involved in you alls convo...but Im genuinely curious if any of you know how Saikam is at guarding the PNR.
He is listed at 6'8 with 7'3 wingspan per google. Bam is listed at 6'9...so I figured Siakam qualifies even though he is listed at PF/Center.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 11-25-2021
@"meistermatze" I have addressed this before, and I fully admit that my take is 100% hindsight. I was all-in on the trade and the extension. Looking back, I wonder why I was all-in on extending a player who had never played a game as a maverick, but it would be revisionist history if I said I was against it at the time.
But yeah, I would have done almost exactly as they have done with Porzingis, except I would have dumped him last year at the deadline (assuming any team would even have had him).
I do agree with those who say he is contributing much more this season, and I am glad to see it. I can also finally envision a world in which some team out there wants to trade for him, so progress is being made regardless of our individual agendas.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 11-25-2021
(11-25-2021, 08:37 AM)Kammrath Wrote: This is the single most promising stretch I have seen from KP. It is only 4 games, but I will be watching this trend closely.
See, I totally agree with us. But I don’t think it’s necessarily an opposing viewpoint to also point out that literally, the entire Suns plan for the fourth quarter of those two games was to go right at Porzingis, and they did so successfully.
I’m with you on this, and I want to see him do well just like anyone else here. I just think his abilities as a screen defender are ultimately going to be the thing that the team can’t work around. Would love to be wrong!
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - Kammrath - 11-25-2021
(11-25-2021, 03:24 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: See, I totally agree with us. But I don’t think it’s necessarily an opposing viewpoint to also point out that literally, the entire Suns plan for the fourth quarter of those two games was to go right at Porzingis, and they did so successfully.
I’m with you on this, and I want to see him do well just like anyone else here. I just think his abilities as a screen defender are ultimately going to be the thing that the team can’t work around. Would love to be wrong!
Didn't KP complain in one of those games that he left his legs back at the hotel? I think he wore down in one or both of those games. You are 100% correct those 4th quarters were both UGLY. But I was encouraged because the first 3 quarters showed lots of promise and overall the team played good D when KP was out there.
And honestly I am fine if teams attack KP. They did that with Dirk to their detriment. Teams were so focused on attacking Dirk at times it killed their offensive efficiency and got them away from doing what they do best and into some unnatural offense.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - hakeemfaan - 11-26-2021
If the right offer came along, I would trade him. I was still high on him even last year when many doubted his game, but the issue with him is health. I don’t trust him to stay healthy. Ben Simmons or KAT or even some slightly lesser pieces if available, I would be disappointed if the Mavs do not at least do their due diligence.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - ClutchDirk - 11-26-2021
More importantly, Doncic has returned to the lineup right as Kristaps Porzingis seems to be rounding into form. Over his last six games, KP is averaging 26.7 points, 8.8 rebounds, 2.5 threes and 1.7 blocks while shooting 38.5 percent from deep.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2950768-nba-power-rankings-stephen-curry-golden-state-playing-like-vintage-warriors
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - ballsrchr - 11-27-2021
(11-25-2021, 04:02 AM)meistermatze Wrote: problem is his health. I got excited about this dude so mane times only to be let down by his body. I can't take it anymore. If there's a deal on the table, you have to take it. His value is okay I would say. BUT Cuban and the Mavs won't settle for someone without a big name and a real big name won't come up. So we are stuck between making a bad deal or waiting for KP's next major injury which will demolish his trade value for good. I know I sound bitter bit it's just a sure thing, IMHO. Even without his history a dude this tall is a LOCK for injuries.
I'm all for this.