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RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - cow - 06-08-2021
KP at center doesn't work in my eyes:
-It doesn't matter what his assignment with pick and roll offenses, he'll get switched into a favorable matchup on the perimeter and abused by smaller, quicker players.
-Throw KP into a Gimmick zone with the current roster construction and it doesn't work either. Teams figure out the zone eventually to get outside looks and even if they drive, he'll be out of rebounding position while playing help defense because our perimeter defense is bad and will not improve over drastically next year .
-And speaking of rebounding, he's not a very good rebounder.
You can't have a max guy end up being a situational center in the playoffs. If KP isn't a top tier scorer, he's too much of a liability otherwise to run him out on the floor.
There just seems to be too many fit, chemistry, injury and happiness issues to salvage this. Some times it makes sense for everyone to move on and have a fresh start. Just like getting out of a bad relationship.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - dirkfansince1998 - 06-08-2021
I think both sides are right. KP canot play center. Simply not strong enough to bang with guys like Zubac. When Luka wasn´t forcing Zubac of the floor he dominated the paint.
He also cannot defend in space and that makes it nearly impossible for him to play PF. He cannot take advantage of guys like Morris or Batum on offense and they are exposing him on defense.
That´s why I mentioned the weight/muscle gain topic again. "Bigger" KP was a better defender. At least in the paint. He would still be a liability in the pick and roll and on the perimeter but that´s a problem for most bigs. Even great bigs like Embiid or Gobert struggle with high pick and roll and stretch bigs.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - StepBackJay - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 04:39 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: But we just tried a two big system and nothing about drop coverage even came into play because we had to run a zone...in the nba playoffs....in game 7....and gave up 70 points in a half all because KP simply can't play the 4 on defense.
We seem to be on the same page about KP leaving but adding a true center next to him makes thing much much worse defensively. He's already proven to be bad at the one thing he's supposed to be good at so I don't understand how asking him to do something we already know he's bad at would help anything at all.
I am not in love with this at all. This is why I believe KP is gone. If somehow Mavs can't move him for anything good I think 2 big system is the way to go (I have reversed course on this).
Last year I was all in on the Maxi/KP frontcourt but it didn't look good (especially when J Rich was starting).
**As an aside imagine how much better this same exact team would be if we hadn't wasted 99% of the season giving J Rich starter minutes. Mavs would have had a better seed and missed the Clips altogether. **
As far as game 7 goes we had multiple problems, including the fact that playing Boban at center is not something anybody wants to do. What if Steven Adams is in that spot instead of Boban? I am okay with KP running at center sometimes, but not full-time like he did for a good portion of the season. Ideally you go get Batum so that you can play either situation. Maxi clearly was hampered all year long which made problems worse defensively.
Anyways I know its counter intuitive but I think you try to move KP away from strength-type training back to more agility to make him more fluid on defense and he will be better next to a real center. I also like him better as a weak-side shot blocker better than the primary anchor under the basket. He gets in better shot-blocking position as the help, honestly.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - StepBackJay - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 04:42 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: KP was supposed to BE a prime Ibaka type player, and then some.
Pretty sure Ibaka will be available btw...
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - Scott41theMavs - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 04:46 PM)cow Wrote: KP at center doesn't work in my eyes:
-It doesn't matter what his assignment with pick and roll offenses, he'll get switched into a favorable matchup on the perimeter and abused by smaller, quicker players.
-Throw KP into a Gimmick zone with the current roster construction and it doesn't work either. Teams figure out the zone eventually to get outside looks and even if they drive, he'll be out of rebounding position while playing help defense because our perimeter defense is bad and will not improve over drastically next year .
-And speaking of rebounding, he's not a very good rebounder.
You can't have a max guy end up being a situational center in the playoffs. If KP is a top tier scorer, he's too much of a liability otherwise to run him out on the floor.
There just seems to be too many fit, chemistry, injury and happiness issues to salvage this. Some times it makes sense for everyone to move on and have a fresh start. Just like getting out of a bad relationship.
So many people here saying "KP just doesn't work here," when the logical conclusion of their arguments is actually, "KP doesn't work in the NBA." If that's the case, why should any of the other 29 NBA teams want him at the vet minimum, much less a max deal? Even if they're sending back trash in return?
Better hope y'all's basketball analysis of KP is wrong, because if it isn't, it's likely we have no recourse but to stretch waive him at the end of next year. My personal opinion is that things are slightly less dire - which leads me back to, pull up chairs and make popcorn for this board when you see the apocalyptic meltdown in response to what KP brings back in trade this summer.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - StepBackJay - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 04:46 PM)cow Wrote: KP at center doesn't work in my eyes:
-It doesn't matter what his assignment with pick and roll offenses, he'll get switched into a favorable matchup on the perimeter and abused by smaller, quicker players.
-Throw KP into a Gimmick zone with the current roster construction and it doesn't work either. Teams figure out the zone eventually to get outside looks and even if they drive, he'll be out of rebounding position while playing help defense because our perimeter defense is bad and will not improve over drastically next year .
-And speaking of rebounding, he's not a very good rebounder.
You can't have a max guy end up being a situational center in the playoffs. If KP is a top tier scorer, he's too much of a liability otherwise to run him out on the floor.
There just seems to be too many fit, chemistry, injury and happiness issues to salvage this. Some times it makes sense for everyone to move on and have a fresh start. Just like getting out of a bad relationship.
I agree with the moving on part. I just think if you have a real center then that means he is guarding the other team's center not KP so there is less incentive to target KP in the PnR. KP sucks against a good roller. Again I would abort the plan the Mavs had to make KP into a "center" body and go back to agility/conditioning training that will help him be more fluid. The beefed up KP is just never going to be strong enough to handle centers. His center of gravity being so high limits him. I don't think its impossible for him to get back to a player that moves around the court better.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 04:46 PM)cow Wrote: KP at center doesn't work in my eyes:
-It doesn't matter what his assignment with pick and roll offenses, he'll get switched into a favorable matchup on the perimeter and abused by smaller, quicker players.
-Throw KP into a Gimmick zone with the current roster construction and it doesn't work either. Teams figure out the zone eventually to get outside looks and even if they drive, he'll be out of rebounding position while playing help defense because our perimeter defense is bad and will not improve over drastically next year .
-And speaking of rebounding, he's not a very good rebounder.
It's sort of a semantic debate, at this point. All of your bullet points above are the issues, even if you play him at 2-guard. If he's on the floor, those are the ways in which your team will suffer from playing him.
I guess my point is that if he's fixable (BIG emphasis on "IF") at all, I still see him from the angle of "my big guy is faster, quicker and more skilled than your big guy." That was and will probably always be the dream with KP. If people have given up on that dream, I don't blame them. I had 75% given up on it right after the bubble last year, and have gotten less confident all season long.
I'm just saying, if people's "solution" to how poorly the dude moves laterally on defense is to play him with a center, even one who CAN play the modern game, then I don't see why we'd even be in favor of messing with the dude anymore. If you have a center you like (let's say Holmes, for this discussion), then RAD!!! Now, go get a 4 you like who fits with him! Because OMG, if you play KP/Holmes together, teams are absolutely STILL going to pick and roll KP to death.
If we were ANY other fanbase, we'd understand this. People have the memory of Dirk stuck in their heads, so they're trying to make it work with KP like the Mavs did with Dirk. But, Dirk was an actual great offensive player. With moves. Who could score when you threw him the ball. And honestly, he moved better into his 30's than KP did THIS SEASON, which I never thought I'd say.
The ONLY hope, regardless of position or fit, is that KP's hampered movement and agility was TEMPORARY. I'm so skeptical about that, but I obviously don't KNOW. Maybe a healthy off-season and a full season during which he's not trying to work himself back into game shape during actual games will make a huge difference. But, if what we saw this year is really just how slow he is...how hard it is for him to change directions or move laterally, etc. Donesky.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - fifteenth - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 04:40 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: Like do we really have to soften every statement to make people feel better? I 100% guarantee KP sucks and will be traded!
Whatever. I didn't say anything like the above.
You really think it's good practice to state opinions as fact? You don't have to answer. Maybe I'm alone, but opinions stated as fact make me not take the statements seriously. But your enjoyment of basketball talk doesn't need to be based on my language preferences. So no big deal.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - cow - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 04:58 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: It's sort of a semantic debate, at this point. All of your bullet points above are the issues, even if you play him at 2-guard. If he's on the floor, those are the ways in which your team will suffer from playing him.
That's my point. MBT signed him to be a 24 point a night scorer. His defense might have fallen off since his New York days but great offense will keep you on the floor no matter the situation (hello, Luka).
I see all the posts about improving or regaining his athleticism and while it's a fair opinion, but that would be the least of my concerns. If KP is here to start the season, that's just another failure on the MBT's part. No one in this love triangle are happy and even if that can be rehabbed, I just go back to the injury concerns. The only real question on my mind is how few pennies on the dollar are we going to get for him.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 05:26 PM)cow Wrote: I see all the posts about improving or regaining his athleticism and while it's a fair opinion, but that would be the least of my concerns. If KP is here to start the season, that's just another failure on the MBT's part. No one in this love triangle are happy and even if that can be rehabbed, I just go back to the injury concerns. The only real question on my mind is how few pennies on the dollar are we going to get for him.
Hey, I'm the founder of the "get rid of Porzingis at all costs" political party around here, so I agree.
But, I disagree about the emboldened. I think every bad thing stems from his inability to move. Moving better wouldn't be a cure all - he'd still need to put lots of work in, as would the triangle of he, Luka and Carlisle, but at least there would be a reason to try it.
Defense, defense, defense. Can't compare him to Luka on that end, imo. He's way more vital to the team effort on that end than Luka, and I actually think Luka is steadily improving on that end. Good even, at times.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - SleepingHero - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 03:57 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: Golden rule. If Skip Bayless agrees with your opinion you need to reevalute everything you have ever done.I actually don't really care what Skip says. He's a natural contrarian. He says anything that gets him the most views. Just because he parrots an idea doesn't immediately invalidate the idea itself and if you operate on the basis that whatever an idiot says is always idiotic you'll miss a few gems.
2 things can be true at once. KP got handed the short end of the stick, either from RC not prioritizing him enough or Luka failing to find him on the court. KP also has a big attitude problem and needs to adapt in the NBA. I don't see why we can't recognize BOTH things have merit.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - dirkfansince1998 - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 05:49 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: 2 things can be true at once. KP got handed the short end of the stick, either from RC not prioritizing him enough or Luka failing to find him on the court. KP also has a big attitude problem and needs to adapt in the NBA. I don't see why we can't recognize BOTH things have merit.
That´s where we disagree. I am not sure about the attitude. Maybe there are some problems but I don´t really care about off court stuff. I see a skill/ability problem. The shots he used to take on the Knicks aren´t an option because the Mavs want to have more success than the Knicks. If one of your two main scoring options shoots low 40s from the field, mid 30s from 3 and isn´t getting to the FT line he probably shouldn´t be one of the two main scoring options. That´s what KP used to be in a more featured role. On the Knicks and in his first Mavs season.
Listening to RCs exit interview he more or less confirmed what we saw in the season. Mentioned cuts, catch and shoot/spacing and some pick and roll as great offensive options for KP. No talk about post play or isos.
I am not the only one that looks at the numbers. The Mavs probably have way more data and they come to the same conclusion. KP as a creator on offense is not leading to positive results. This season they started to make adjustments and already changed his role in the regular season. Less isos and post ups. More catch and shoot, more cuts and more attempts in the paint. And it worked. Maybe KP isn´t happy but he scored 20ppg on above league average efficiency (first time in his career).
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - StepBackJay - 06-08-2021
Yall need to think more Por-Wing-is. That is the answer (well or just trading him).
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 06:30 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: Yall need to think more Por-Wing-is. That is the answer
Are you determined for the Mavs to be the single worst defensive team in the history of organized basketball?
The actors who played wing in the movie Hoosiers could school KP out there.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - TXBamanut - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 05:49 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: I actually don't really care what Skip says. He's a natural contrarian. He says anything that gets him the most views. Just because he parrots an idea doesn't immediately invalidate the idea itself and if you operate on the basis that whatever an idiot says is always idiotic you'll miss a few gems.
2 things can be true at once. KP got handed the short end of the stick, either from RC not prioritizing him enough or Luka failing to find him on the court. KP also has a big attitude problem and needs to adapt in the NBA. I don't see why we can't recognize BOTH things have merit.
That doesn't fit the "its all KP's fault" narrative...its actually reasonable like everyone has to improve, even Luka. Heads explode in 3....2.....
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - Kammrath - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 05:30 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I'm the founder of the "get rid of Porzingis at all costs" political party
![[Image: 200.gif]](https://media4.giphy.com/media/QWw4hc5gTnJhY0BUI3/200.gif)
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - dirkfansince1998 - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 06:51 PM)TXBamanut Wrote: That doesn't fit the "its all KP's fault" narrative...its actually reasonable like everyone has to improve, even Luka. Heads explode in 3....2.....
No heads exploding. No one is disputing that the entire team needs to improve. Coaches, players, maybe even the janitor (home court wasn´t an advantage). But this is not what we are trying to discuss in this topic.
The way I understand this entire discussion we have a wide spectrum of opinions when it comes to his offensive role. To simplify it:
- He played good and it just didn´t show up in the boxscore, +/-. Some people simply did not realize how important he was.
- KP is not to blame because the Mavs aren´t using him like they should.
- He is not good but the Mavs aren´t helping him.
- He is not good and the Mavs are trying to limit the damage. Limit him to the things that he can do to help the team
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - StepBackJay - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 06:41 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Are you determined for the Mavs to be the single worst defensive team in the history of organized basketball?
The actors who played wing in the movie Hoosiers could school KP out there.
I mean offensively his game is most successful like a shooting wing. Defensively he needs to play the 4 next to a real center.
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - KillerLeft - 06-08-2021
(06-08-2021, 07:32 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: Defensively he needs to play the 4 next to a real center.
![[Image: tenor.gif]](https://media.tenor.com/images/c8a495c2fa70f31f8b77d35b6e8b91d4/tenor.gif)
RE: HOLY KRISTAPS: All Things Porzingis | Would you trade him? - ItsGoTime - 06-08-2021
KP should be the point forward in this offense. There I said it! TRADE LUKA!