(07-15-2022, 01:15 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: This is in line with my thinking, for sure. 

I'd add that making Dirk the face of the franchise took several years. It was 3-5 years in before they even decided what position he should play and started building around him. 

I LOVE Dirk, and I agree Luka has a ways to go to match his legendary impact on the franchise, but I'd put Luka's first 3-4 years FAR, FAR ahead of Dirk's by comparison.

(07-15-2022, 01:31 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: Not sure what Kamm is pointing to as far as metrics. Luka was an Euroleague MVP. Dirk came from some 3rd division team to the NBA. Of course there is no comparison of the initial years. 

The thing with Dirk though was that he knew his weaknesses and worked hard. Even those first two years.  He never came out of shape. He worked hard on his defense. He didn’t take bad shots. That’s not just when Fin and Nash were here. Later on when he has worse teams, he still played within the construct of a team offense. 

Yes they are different players and it’s not fair to expect Luka to play like Dirk. However what I would like to see is him take a bit more professional approach with some of his glaring flaws. Coming out of shape not once but twice. Still not really caring about defense or trying to cut down on the amount of bad shots. Be open to play a bit more off the ball. Stop complaining after every missed shot and get back on defense 

The attitude to keep working on his flaws does distinguish Dirk from Luka even in the early years.  The overall professionalism also.  As a Mavs fan I am rooting for Luka. However quite a few issues currently are not just due to a lack of better players around him.  He has to keep grinding regardless of what mgmt is doing or not doing.

(07-15-2022, 01:31 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: Not sure what Kamm is pointing to as far as metrics. Luka was an Euroleague MVP. Dirk came from some 3rd division team to the NBA. Of course there is no comparison of the initial years. 

The thing with Dirk though was that he knew his weaknesses and worked hard. Even those first two years.  He never came out of shape. He worked hard on his defense. He didn’t take bad shots. That’s not just when Fin and Nash were here. Later on when he has worse teams, he still played within the construct of a team offense. 

Yes they are different players and it’s not fair to expect Luka to play like Dirk. However what I would like to see is him take a bit more professional approach with some of his glaring flaws. Coming out of shape not once but twice. Still not really caring about defense or trying to cut down on the amount of bad shots. Be open to play a bit more off the ball. Stop complaining after every missed shot and get back on defense 

The attitude to keep working on his flaws does distinguish Dirk from Luka even in the early years.  The overall professionalism also.  As a Mavs fan I am rooting for Luka. However quite a few issues currently are not just due to a lack of better players around him.  He has to keep grinding regardless of what mgmt is doing or not doing.

(07-15-2022, 01:56 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: While character is an ephemeral thing, what I took away from your post is that Luka needs Holger.

(07-15-2022, 01:09 PM)mvossman Wrote: What is this based on?  To start with, Luka was 22 most of last season.  Second, Dirk didn't get to the WCF until his 5th season (24 years old) with a much better supporting cast (Finley and Nash).  Third, the best advanced metrics that go back that far say Luka was more impactful to winning.

• Luka's four seasons (before starting a season aged 23): -3.7, +1.2, +3.0, +0.2
  
• Dirk's three seasons (before starting a season aged 23): +2.6, +5.9, +17.7
  

(07-15-2022, 02:04 PM)Fuerza1 Wrote: The Hoop Collective podcast summed up all my feelings on this summer’s failures from Nico and Cuban. Tim Bontemps nailed it from start to finish. 

1.) The Mavs roster looks like a play-in team. 

2.) They have no young talent on this roster and are stuck cap wise. 

3.) Even if a star wanted to force his way to DAL, they do not have the ammo to obtain said star. 

4.) The unrestricted free agency clock is ticking for Luka. 3 years to get it right before he sees greener grass. 

IMO, Mavs essentially punted the next 2 seasons, which leaves them with 1 year to turn it around because that 4th year in Luka’s contract will be expiring, and if Mavs do not produce a winner, he’s probably gone. 

2024 the Mavs might have cap space (Plan Powder Part L) but past FA failures are not encouraging. Hell, by then it might be too late. Look at Durant wanting out with 4 years left on his contract and Mitchell in trade talks with 3 years left on his. 

Banking on a lot of hope the last 10+ years and that strategy appears to be what Nico/Cuban are pushing towards, again.

(07-15-2022, 02:04 PM)Fuerza1 Wrote: The Hoop Collective podcast summed up all my feelings on this summer’s failures from Nico and Cuban. Tim Bontemps nailed it from start to finish. 

1.) The Mavs roster looks like a play-in team. 

2.) They have no young talent on this roster and are stuck cap wise. 

3.) Even if a star wanted to force his way to DAL, they do not have the ammo to obtain said star. 

4.) The unrestricted free agency clock is ticking for Luka. 3 years to get it right before he sees greener grass. 

IMO, Mavs essentially punted the next 2 seasons, which leaves them with 1 year to turn it around because that 4th year in Luka’s contract will be expiring, and if Mavs do not produce a winner, he’s probably gone. 

2024 the Mavs might have cap space (Plan Powder Part L) but past FA failures are not encouraging. Hell, by then it might be too late. Look at Durant wanting out with 4 years left on his contract and Mitchell in trade talks with 3 years left on his. 

Banking on a lot of hope the last 10+ years and that strategy appears to be what Nico/Cuban are pushing towards, again.

(07-15-2022, 02:02 PM)Kammrath Wrote: It is based on two things: 

1) My personal eye test of having watched virtually all the minutes of both players. Luka is the far better individual player at the same age, but Dirk was the far better IMO of fitting into the team reality and helping elevate the whole of the team play. Luka has transcendent moments where he absolutely lifts the play of the whole team in incredible ways, but he has a lot of moments where he is a big detriment defensively, in effort, and in selfishness. Dirk is one of the GOATs in elevating the play of those around him. When Dirk got on the court his teams almost always became a totally different monster that were really, really hard to beat. The Mavs almost always lost games when Dirk was sitting. 

2) On/Off +/-

• Luka's four seasons (before starting a season aged 23): -3.7, +1.2, +3.0, +0.2
  
• Dirk's three seasons (before starting a season aged 23): +2.6, +5.9, +17.7
  

Also, I don't know what "best advanced metrics" you are referring to. I do not think there were any trustworthy advanced metrics in 99, 00, and 01.  

One more note: Luka has been better as a playoff performer than Dirk was at the same age.

(07-15-2022, 02:02 PM)Kammrath Wrote: It is based on two things: 

1) My personal eye test of having watched virtually all the minutes of both players. Luka is the far better individual player at the same age, but Dirk was the far better IMO of fitting into the team reality and helping elevate the whole of the team play. Luka has transcendent moments where he absolutely lifts the play of the whole team in incredible ways, but he has a lot of moments where he is a big detriment defensively, in effort, and in selfishness. Dirk is one of the GOATs in elevating the play of those around him. When Dirk got on the court his teams almost always became a totally different monster that were really, really hard to beat. The Mavs almost always lost games when Dirk was sitting. 

2) On/Off +/-

• Luka's four seasons (before starting a season aged 23): -3.7, +1.2, +3.0, +0.2
  
• Dirk's three seasons (before starting a season aged 23): +2.6, +5.9, +17.7
  

Also, I don't know what "best advanced metrics" you are referring to. I do not think there were any trustworthy advanced metrics in 99, 00, and 01.  

One more note: Luka has been better as a playoff performer than Dirk was at the same age.

(07-15-2022, 02:28 PM)mvossman Wrote: I don't claim to have watched as much Mavericks as you have, but my eye test was that it took a while for Dirk to have a transcendent impact.  It felt to me like it took him several years to get to that point.

(07-15-2022, 02:04 PM)Fuerza1 Wrote: The Hoop Collective podcast summed up all my feelings on this summer’s failures from Nico and Cuban. Tim Bontemps nailed it from start to finish. 

1.) The Mavs roster looks like a play-in team. 

2.) They have no young talent on this roster and are stuck cap wise. 

3.) Even if a star wanted to force his way to DAL, they do not have the ammo to obtain said star. 

4.) The unrestricted free agency clock is ticking for Luka. 3 years to get it right before he sees greener grass. 

IMO, Mavs essentially punted the next 2 seasons, which leaves them with 1 year to turn it around because that 4th year in Luka’s contract will be expiring, and if Mavs do not produce a winner, he’s probably gone. 

2024 the Mavs might have cap space (Plan Powder Part L) but past FA failures are not encouraging. Hell, by then it might be too late. Look at Durant wanting out with 4 years left on his contract and Mitchell in trade talks with 3 years left on his. 

Banking on a lot of hope the last 10+ years and that strategy appears to be what Nico/Cuban are pushing towards, again.

(07-15-2022, 02:33 PM)mvossman Wrote: This is assuming the Mavs are going the cap route.  Like you, I am highly skeptical we will have success that way, and it will involve gutting the team in the process.  I still think the correct route is trade.  After the next draft, we will have access to all of our future picks.  We don't have to pull the trigger right away, but that is our best shot at getting a number 2 and being a legit contender.

(07-15-2022, 01:30 PM)cow Wrote: The Gobert trade moved the goalposts and it is what GMs will be looking for and referencing in future negotiations.  My opinion of course.

(07-15-2022, 02:04 PM)Fuerza1 Wrote: The Hoop Collective podcast summed up all my feelings on this summer’s failures from Nico and Cuban. Tim Bontemps nailed it from start to finish. 

1.) The Mavs roster looks like a play-in team. 

2.) They have no young talent on this roster and are stuck cap wise. 

3.) Even if a star wanted to force his way to DAL, they do not have the ammo to obtain said star. 

4.) The unrestricted free agency clock is ticking for Luka. 3 years to get it right before he sees greener grass. 

IMO, Mavs essentially punted the next 2 seasons, which leaves them with 1 year to turn it around because that 4th year in Luka’s contract will be expiring, and if Mavs do not produce a winner, he’s probably gone. 

2024 the Mavs might have cap space (Plan Powder Part L) but past FA failures are not encouraging. Hell, by then it might be too late. Look at Durant wanting out with 4 years left on his contract and Mitchell in trade talks with 3 years left on his. 

Banking on a lot of hope the last 10+ years and that strategy appears to be what Nico/Cuban are pushing towards, again.

(07-15-2022, 02:39 PM)mvossman Wrote: I don't think it will play out like this.  I think GMs know there are Ainge trades and everybody else trades.  Plus, if Minny struggles at all with Gobert there might even be a backlash on such a crazy haul and they pendulum might start swinging the other way.  Only time will tell.

(07-15-2022, 02:37 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: The issue with the trade route is that we don't (and won't, for the next two years) have any substantial assets aside from the first rounders, which will presumably be low (until Luka leaves, of course...).

(07-15-2022, 02:33 PM)mvossman Wrote: This is assuming the Mavs are going the cap route.  Like you, I am highly skeptical we will have success that way, and it will involve gutting the team in the process.  I still think the correct route is trade.  After the next draft, we will have access to all of our future picks.  We don't have to pull the trigger right away, but that is our best shot at getting a number 2 and being a legit contender.

(07-15-2022, 02:47 PM)Fuerza1 Wrote: The second "star" talk has been going on for over a decade. It's become an imaginary friend in Cuban's 'beautiful' mind.

There are several issues with the trade route too. 

1.) The roster can still get gutted.

2.) The Mavs may not have the highest offer if a "star" were to become available. Little to no assets. 

3.) Trading a bunch of future 1st's sounds nice but you are not getting a needle moving star for just that package. 

- At best, maybe a Jrue Holiday or DeJounte Murray level guy BUT who out here fits that bill? Even if you can land someone of that caliber, I don't see it turning them into championship contenders. Bucks already had Middleton and Hawks remain to be seen but at least they have Collins too.

(07-15-2022, 03:14 PM)mvossman Wrote: Who knows what option there will be out there.  Maybe Toronto is ready to rebuild and move on from Siakam.

(07-15-2022, 02:43 PM)cow Wrote: It's why I've been warming up to the idea of a reset that would only punt this season.  Powell + THJ + Bertans for Westbrook.  You'd have cap space next summer and all of your first round picks once the draft is concluded.  It's definitely a step backwards this season as I don't think Westbrook would want to come off the bench and even if he does, he'd more than likely be a negative.  You'd sacrifice some shooting but maybe with the extra roster spots you could kick the tires on someone like Quinn Cook and then get another scrap heap ball hander/creator.