(02-09-2024, 09:31 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I agree that Luka probably needs to see a plan NOW, and that he’s probably one of the main voices deciding things like “Grant is weird, get him out of here” or “PJ seems like a good fit.” 

And before this summer, I would’ve been resigned to this path like you seem to be. 

But man, their maneuvering on draft night changed me. Imagine if they had just done that three years in a row up until the next free agent period for Luka. Imagine the amount of young talent there would be around here at that point, and imagine how much experience some of it would have by then. I have to believe that Luka is smart enough to see the wisdom in that approach, and think I would’ve tried to sell them on it. Who knows, maybe they did…

Don’t get me wrong – I am excited to watch these two new players with the team, and I do think they’ll make the team better.

(02-09-2024, 10:53 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I didn’t realize it when I was making the argument this morning, but this really is the difference for me.

I don’t agree for a second with IGT’s claim that this could be a dark horse contender, but when I try to think why, it really doesn’t have much to do with the roster. I think that’s exactly the way I would describe the roster… If it was coached well.

It’s just impossible for me to imagine Jason Kidd coaching this team to the championship. So, without even meaning to be, I’m in sort of a holding pattern until they wise up and change head coaches. That holding pattern leads me to want to conserve assets until we know what the real coach is going to want in order to get the job done, and so on and so on. It’s like dominoes for me, and I didn’t fully realize that until just now.

(02-09-2024, 11:24 AM)BigDirk41 Wrote: There's no way Luka waits 3 more years for young talent to hopefully blossom. A player of his magnitude shouldn't have to wait either. He's in year 6. No great player has ever been content with waiting until year 9 to hope things work out. I understand you personally wanting that, but no matter what any of us think or want, it only matters what Luka wants. He deserves to have a competitive team and one that he can take deep into the playoffs if they are healthy. The roster is good now. Can Kidd coach them properly? Who the hell knows, but the talent is there now from 1-10. This roster is good enough if healthy and if Luka does his normal playoff thing, to make a run.

(02-09-2024, 11:24 AM)BigDirk41 Wrote: There's no way Luka waits 3 more years for young talent to hopefully blossom. A player of his magnitude shouldn't have to wait either. He's in year 6. No great player has ever been content with waiting until year 9 to hope things work out. I understand you personally wanting that, but no matter what any of us think or want, it only matters what Luka wants. He deserves to have a competitive team and one that he can take deep into the playoffs if they are healthy. The roster is good now. Can Kidd coach them properly? Who the hell knows, but the talent is there now from 1-10. This roster is good enough if healthy and if Luka does his normal playoff thing, to make a run.

(02-09-2024, 10:00 AM)omahen Wrote: I don't think there is much doom and gloom really. I would say some of us are just cautious and not celebrating before we actually see the on court product.

What triggers me a bit is that in the discussions prior to TDL, "90 %" of the board would laugh at proposals to trade 2027 for PJ. Find thousand arguments why this is an overkill and how 2 SRP is max we should do. Now all of a sudden "90 %" of the board is super positive about it.

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The possibility of player like Grant not working here is far lower than the possibility of player like PJ not working here. That is my main argument. Of course it is always possible it wouldn't be enough, but I would be far more comfortable doing it.

(02-09-2024, 11:45 AM)Smitty Wrote: Just for clarification the Mavs have a FRP in every future draft except ‘29 and possibly ‘27 (top 2 protected).

I’m not talking about tradable picks. Actual draft picks where they can select a player.

It’s not as doom and gloom as some might think.

(02-09-2024, 11:47 AM)mvossman Wrote: I can definitely see the argument of not doing the PJ deal.  Hold onto that first round pick for the offseason and hope that GWill figures out how to be useful on the court.  Its a risk.  I'm 50/50 on it, mostly because I am glad to be off that GWill contract.  I definitely like the trade we did vs a one for one with Green.  It would have been a mess having both GWill and PJ on the roster.

(02-09-2024, 11:50 AM)omahen Wrote: Just for clarification. There is a slight difference between picking in the top five or bottom five. Which is a possible consequence of a pick swap. Especially picks after Kyrie and Luka current deals.

(02-09-2024, 11:50 AM)omahen Wrote: Just for clarification. There is a slight difference between picking in the top five or bottom five. Which is a possible consequence of a pick swap. Especially picks after Kyrie and Luka current deals.

(02-09-2024, 11:39 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: You keep responding as if it’s a simple choice between being good or not being good, and which of those Luka would prefer.

What I’m saying is that I believe these choices the Mavs are making could make winning less likely in the long run. Far less likely. “In the long run” is when he will actually decide whether or not he wants to stay, not this summer. He is here for two more years for sure, and probably three. What they are doing is going to make it far, far more difficult to upgrade the team THEN, when it will matter most. 

If the payoff for putting themselves up against that kind of risk was actually competing for a championship now, I could understand it. But, that’s not what they are getting, right? What they are getting now is a slightly better chance to finish sixth, rather than have to go through the play-in process to make the playoffs. Either way, what’s the best we can hope for… Second round exit? That’s not nothing, and I am not suggesting they shouldn’t try to max this team out, it’s just that I had hoped they could do it with more modest moves that kept momentum going for future moves.

Love Gafford, but he is a backup center here. I do not think he is worth (to the Mavs) either his salary or the first round pick they had to acquire to give up for him. I think they will be playoff games where he plays eight minutes and everybody here loses their mind, because Kleber is in there instead of him. And, I think it will probably be the right decision to play Kleber in front of him. Who knows, maybe Gafford will get the minutes and it will be Lively who ends up with eight minutes, but I doubt it. Gafford definitely Protects them from a Lively injury. Love that part of it, but… For a first? At $12 million per?

Love PJ and I think he will be great here. I have said so repeatedly for months. But, I didn’t think it would be so expensive to get him. I would feel so much better about that deal if it had been like Williams, Curry and Hardy, maybe. 

It’s just the draft capital, guys. You need it just to be able to get on the phone and discuss these deals nowadays. They’ve got to be smarter about how they use it. I do like that they’re starting to get pics back in these deals, but I think it might be too little too late.

(02-09-2024, 11:59 AM)mvossman Wrote: The first we gave up for Gafford was crap.  It cost a pick swap.  If you do the math, we paid a pick swap for Gafford and Omax.

I'm not sure PJ was expensive so much as getting of GWill ASAP was expensive.  That was a costly mistake.  Given your pro PJ stance, wouldn't you expect a rebound such that his market value might approach a first round pick again?  Teams like picks, but sometimes teams like players.  OG didn't cost a single first.  There is an argument to be made that having 2 firsts and a couple 25 year olds on good contracts might be a better position than 3 firsts and crappy contracts.

(02-09-2024, 11:55 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I think I would have skipped the Gafford deal without a second thought, because that pick swap in ’28 (which could be the Mavs swapping out the #1 pick for one in the late 20’s) is just overtly too damn much to pay for a back up at any freaking position, especially center. And before anyone says it, I don’t care about the cost of dumping Holmes, because I believe his expiring could have been useful over the summer or this time next year. I was actually kind of looking forward to having it, truth be told.