(07-20-2023, 04:35 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: People seem to be missing that Holmes was benched for off-court and coaching style reasons. It's no stretch to presume he hasn't lost much in the last two seasons. He's 29, not 34. 

Speaking of "stretch," anyone for Mirotic?

(07-20-2023, 04:35 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: People seem to be missing that Holmes was benched for off-court and coaching style reasons. It's no stretch to presume he hasn't lost much in the last two seasons. He's 29, not 34. 

(07-20-2023, 05:07 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Sure, there were some off-court things that contributed, and that's the hope: now that all of that is behind him, will focusing on basketball more singularly put a little wind in his sails? Right there with you. 

But it's not only that. It's not that simple. He lost his job to Alex freaking Len. Coaching style? Idk, man, I bet SAC would've LOVED being able to run pick and roll with Holmes while Sabots sat. There was something he was missing on-court, at least from their perspective, that made him unplayable.

And, do we honestly think that completely giving up their first round pick in the draft was their first attempt to move his salary? That's a HIGH cost for such a move. To me, that screams that other teams wouldn't take the guy. 

Idk, I can certainly buy the idea that he has something left and that a change of scenery and a chance to run pick and roll with Luka and Kyrie will do him some good. I have no trouble getting there in a hopeful sense. It just seems silly to me to assume it's going to work out that way.

(07-20-2023, 04:46 PM)RDB Wrote: IMO, not achieving an off-season goal does not equate to failure.  I like the effort but it’s not like we had much to work with.  I am super pleased with what we have done and am way more optimistic for the future. 

Unlike some here, I think we are more than 1 Capela away from being legit.  I would love to upgrade at C but please, please, please, don’t do something stupid.  IMO, if we stand pat, those who consider this off-season a failure are those who had unrealistic expectations.  Anyone with any clarity should have known it was going to take more than 1 off-season to fix our mess.

As far as Holmes, I am willing to discount last year as I think he just didn’t fit what the Kings were trying to do.  Is he the answer for the Mav’s…no.  But it’s not like Powell has set some high bar offensively or defensively.  I think Powell and Holmes will end up being 1A and 1B.  Holmes will provide some on the court production that Powell can’t but will not match some of his intangibles.  And I’m fine with that…just show me some solid progression and a vision for the future and I’m giddy.

(07-20-2023, 08:10 PM)omahen Wrote: I demand more from Mavs exactly because of all years of failure. Because only excellent work will undo all the mistakes since drafting Luka. That is why I am so much more critical of every missed opportunity. They are extremely costly for Mavs. And I have heard "sometimes the best deal is the one you don't do" mantra just too many times in last 5 years. Because at one point, you actually have to make it. You have to bring in those players. Because perhaps spending assets for 6th or 7th best types playing 3rd or 4th best role might be even more expensive than actually bringing a guy that can play the role. Even if he seems expensive.

(07-20-2023, 08:42 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: That’s a start, right?

(07-20-2023, 09:04 PM)omahen Wrote: For me it is not enough to let them of the hook. Not even close 

(07-20-2023, 09:06 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Right. Me, either, and I said as much. 

I’m just happy they didn’t move in the wrong direction AGAIN.

(07-20-2023, 09:24 PM)omahen Wrote: But which moves were moves in the wrong direction? I don't think they were necessarily making moves in a wrong direction. Their problem for 5 years was that they have really no direction. Wanting to be contenders, but not puting everything in to be one. Not tanking or developing on the other hand. They were also failing at what they actually wanted to do. They thought KP is the right piece next to Luka, they failed. They didn't want to let Brunson go, they failed. They didn't want 2020 rookies to not succeed, other than Green (to an extent) they failed. They wanted to sign complementary low level stars like Kemba and Lowry, but failed. I don't remember them spending cash to buy a SRP or correct some of the mistakes. Missed a bunch of opportunities like not getting value for cap space twice. Other than throwing 2nd rounders around like candy, they didn't trade draft capital. Always keeping the powder dry for that next star, which is the strategy that I do hold against them. 

I don't think anything is much different in a big picture. What is their direction? They brought Kyrie in, which is a short term move. Than they did a bunch of long term moves. So when those long term moves will be ready, Kyrie will be worse or gone. Failed to bring the good complementary pieces. Even if one believes Green and GW are credible starters, we all know they have huge hole on the C position. Still have plenty of players that don't fit the need. 

I said many times. I am fine with those moves they made. I hope all kids they have will become good players. What I firmly believe is missing, is a couple of complementary players to bridge the gap between now and the time the kids are ready. And I consider this part a failure. And if I quote Stein - THEY know they have not done enough.

(07-20-2023, 09:36 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I don’t see it as a success or failure based on all moves being EITHER win now OR long term. I think Kyrie could be moved pretty easily to add pieces and capital for the long term plan, or, if things go better than expected soon, some of the long term assets they added could be used to get more win now guys. What they’ve done is turned a complete lack of attractive assets into a pile of them really quickly. That seems like a plan, to me, and they’re not painted into an inflexible corner the way it’s felt like they were the past couple of years. They’re giving themselves real options, which I don’t personally think they’ve had since that awful Porzingis disaster.

And, this next point isn’t really a defense of anything we’re discussing, but this is the first summer I’ve felt was actually different since the big GM shakeup. Idk if it’s Lindsey, just that Harrison and Finley are finally finding their sea legs, or just an aimless, flash-in-the-pan abnormal summer, but it has me intrigued enough to want to watch what happens next. This might be a little lost on you since you joined us when Luka did, but the playbook they ran for the first 3-4 years of his career was pretty similar to what they’d been doing since Cuban bought the team. Trust me, this is DIFFERENT for the Mavs. 

I know it’s frustrating that they’re having to dig themselves out of a hole so deep, but I honestly believe this will prove to be a good summer, not only for the team, but for Luka’s career, too. Finally, I can imagine them being out there with a 25-27 year old Luka, loads of people wanting to play with him, and the assets to actually acquire them.

(07-20-2023, 08:10 PM)omahen Wrote: I demand more from Mavs exactly because of all years of failure. Because only excellent work will undo all the mistakes since drafting Luka. That is why I am so much more critical of every missed opportunity. They are extremely costly for Mavs. And I have heard "sometimes the best deal is the one you don't do" mantra just too many times in last 5 years. Because at one point, you actually have to make it. You have to bring in those players. Because perhaps spending assets for 6th or 7th best types playing 3rd or 4th best role might be even more expensive than actually bringing a guy that can play the role. Even if he seems expensive.

(07-20-2023, 09:24 PM)omahen Wrote: 1 But which moves were moves in the wrong direction? I don't think they were necessarily making moves in a wrong direction.

2 Their problem for 5 years was that they had really no direction. Wanting to be contenders, but not putting everything in to be one.

3 Not tanking or developing on the other hand.

(07-20-2023, 10:15 PM)omahen Wrote: I have thrown around many ideas about different moves and I am sure there are plenty more possible combinations. I don't really care about the difficulties, obstacles, negotiations etc. I know it is not easy. I expect a good FO to make it happen.

(07-20-2023, 10:17 PM)F Gump Wrote: 1-2 I think those sentences accurately summarize your whole post, and I disagree with both.That is, I think they did have a defined direction, but I think they failed in doing it properly.

1-2 I think their goal was to get 2 stars who could complement each other and build around. Luka was the 1st. Where they failed was thinking KP would be the 2nd, and by going all-in on him, that was their wrong direction move. They thought they were getting Anthony Davis 2.0, and instead they got a KD wanna-be who was extra tall for a shooter, but not an elite shot, and not interested in dominating in the middle. And brittle. Their analysis and evaluation was a total fail, in their over-eagerness to get the 2nd star.

IMO They certainly had a plan, and were all-in. But their lack of proper evaluation killed them.
 
In that same vein, I think the Kyrie acquisition was the next stab at the same plan. I don't think he was brought in to be a short-term band-aid, but instead they simply see him as the 2nd star they need, with the intention to make it work well and to ride it out as long as possible. In time we'll see if they did better this go-round than with KP.

3 Tanking and development?

The fact that they (wrongly) thought they had their 2 stars kept them from tanking. They spent picks on who they thought was the 2nd star. And I do think they tanked more this year than anyone knew, so they get some credit for that from me -- but they really cut it tight, in keeping the pick, which I thought was dumb because it was so needless.

But it doesn't excuse the fact they failed to develop at the bottom of the roster, and have an expert development team to make things happen. Those were several wasted years they can never get back. And they never got a talent expert and negotiator until this year, which was inexcusable as there's no cap on hiring experts.

(07-20-2023, 10:15 PM)omahen Wrote: But, I think you are missing a scenario, what if things don't look good at TDL. What if Mavs suck similarly to last season, because they are just not good enough. That scenario changes a lot of things and puts you in a very different position. Unfortunately, I think the probability of that scenario to happen is not neglectable.

(07-20-2023, 10:45 PM)RDB Wrote: I think it depends on how you define “good enough”.  Good enough to me is legitimate contenders and there is nothing we can do today or on day 1 of FA that was going to get us there.  Outside of Luka and Kyrie, I’m not sure any of our other player would start for a playoff team in the west last year.  We were too flawed with nothing but a handful of beans to barter with.  

Let’s not repeat past mistakes by thinking we are just one tweak away from contention…IMO, we are not.  We are finally gathering a few assets and maybe for once, we will be able to bargain from a position of strength.  Piss those assets away on hopes and dreams just continues the cycle.  Just my opinion.

(07-20-2023, 10:50 PM)omahen Wrote: Here we don't agree. I don't think it is that costly to bring correct role players. They have done a very good first part of the job, but failed to finish properly.

(07-20-2023, 10:58 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Maybe the Mavs PR machine is their own worst enemy, because it seems like all this angst is coming right from what Stein said.