(06-25-2023, 09:44 AM)ThisIStheYear Wrote: Maxi and THJ for a bona fide young, starting center who was the first pick in the draft and has already made one finals appearance as a “third best” player for just Maxi and THJ, two aging role players with questionable NBA futures and bad contracts?  What’s the problem?  Ok, if Maxi and THJ really have that kind of value (why would they), I’d use it for a different position that’s not a progress stopper for Lively, but in a vacuum, that trade is basically a give away. I’d file this under pipe dream.

(06-25-2023, 11:37 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: But despite that I don't think PHX trades Ayton now. No one is offering anything of value and they aren't too desperate. Maybe if the season starts and their lack of depth is killing them they'd get more motivated but I can't see it now.

(06-25-2023, 11:37 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: I don't think any trade for Ayton would be a progress stopper for Lively. We need a starting center. I can very easily see a reality where Holmes isn't working, Lively isn't ready, and we're right back to starting Powell 25 mins a night.

But despite that I don't think PHX trades Ayton now. No one is offering anything of value and they aren't too desperate. Maybe if the season starts and their lack of depth is killing them they'd get more motivated but I can't see it now.

(06-25-2023, 11:37 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: I don't think any trade for Ayton would be a progress stopper for Lively. We need a starting center. I can very easily see a reality where Holmes isn't working, Lively isn't ready, and we're right back to starting Powell 25 mins a night.

But despite that I don't think PHX trades Ayton now. No one is offering anything of value and they aren't too desperate. Maybe if the season starts and their lack of depth is killing them they'd get more motivated but I can't see it now.

(06-25-2023, 11:56 AM)mvossman Wrote: I would rather start Powell 25 minutes a night for one season than have Ayton clogging up the center position for 3 years at 35 per.  The goal should be for Lively to get 20 minutes a game his first season and ideally start soon after.  Not sure how that happens with Ayton on the roster.

I think there is a reasonable chance Holmes has a rebound season.  There are a lot of reasons to think this is possible.  We bring in Ayton and we will never find out.  With Ayton and Lively, Holmes is not getting any minutes and he immediately becomes a dead asset that we are stuck with for two years unless we pay assets to dump him like Sacto did.

With the new CBA its a killer to spend elite money on good players.  Its why you see teams trying to dump those contracts.  Ayton is a good young center, but I don't see a path to elite.  We would have over 50 mil devoted to the 5 spot without an elite option.  Teams just can't operate that way, especially now.

(06-25-2023, 11:53 AM)cow Wrote: Holmes, Luka and Kyrie starting doesn't seem like that would work defensively.  Even if Lively picks up things quickly, he'll have the learning curves of the NBA to figure out so he isn't always in foul trouble.  I really think we'll see Powell or Maxi starting with the rest of the group getting heft minutes as well.   And that's the optimistic scenario where Holmes rounds back into form and Lively is a day one contributor.  

I think Phoenix would trade Ayton for pennies, nickels, or quarters on the dollar is you could give them three contributors.  Maybe they'd consider some combination of THJ, Maxi, Bullock, McGee and Holmes to give them depth.  Or maybe throw in a Wood S&T to the mix.  Trade machines are saying they can take back $40.4M.  

I don't really want any part of Ayton though.  Maybe if he were still on his rookie contract but his skillset seems a little outdated for the NBA as you can take him off the floor with matchups and that's not want I want to be spending $30+ on per year.

(06-25-2023, 11:52 AM)ThisIStheYear Wrote: I’m not against an Ayton for basically nothing trade. He won’t stop Lively’s  progress at first, but by sometime in year two, I think he could. And there’s no way they can share the court. But I’d still do this trade and sort it out later. Next year isn’t the year anyways. I just want the Mavs to win regular season games and develop players.

As for Maxi, I’m sorry to say that he’s awful. PER under 10. VORP of 0, very negative LEBRON, negative everything statistically, and he’s a near 7 footer who rebounds like a six footer, and that’s probably being generous. And that’s just when he can play. If he gets more than 15 minutes a game, he’s sure to suffer a longish term injury, which is why his production has fallen off a cliff. His body isn’t going to get better.  He’s a great dude, like a slightly better version of Pinson, but as a business proposition, the only reason to keep him at his salary is because he and Luka seem close, which isn’t nothing, but it’s not worth eight figures.

(06-25-2023, 12:10 PM)mvossman Wrote: If you want to maximize defense before Lively is ready, then you probably start Maxi at center.  Otherwise I'm not sure Powell or even Ayton are better choices than Holmes defensively.  Holmes is a better rim protector than either of them, and a better rebounder than Powell.

With the Lively pick and getting back into the draft tells me the FO is not aiming for a championship this season.  They are actually looking a little longer term than previously.  If that is the mindset, then you don't spend more assets at the center position (other than possibly Powell) unless/until you determine Lively is not going to be the long term solution.

(06-25-2023, 11:46 AM)khaled1987 Wrote: The idea is that they want Tobis for Ayton,  although I don't get who will start at C for them.

Quote:https://twitter.com/Gambo987/status/1672971404919316480

This is incredible just total BS. Suns have no interest. Once again - I do NOT expect them to trade Ayton..

Quote:Phoenix Suns are moving forward with the plan of keeping Deandre Ayton to play alongside Devin Booker, Kevin Durant and Bradley Beal, league sources tell @NBAonTNT, @BleacherReport.
https://twitter.com/ChrisBHaynes/status/1672995568099160064?s=20

https://twitter.com/chrisbhaynes/status/1672996546324082688?s=46&t=xNHF873rjt7IFVxyn62T2g
Suns believe Ayton’s value to the franchise is at an all-time high with the additions of Beal and Durant. Phoenix wants to see them play together.

Quote:"Deandre Ayton's value to the franchise is at an all-time high" is a thing the Suns are leaking about Deandre Ayton, whose value to the franchise is such that it needs to be leaked that his value to the franchise is at an all-time high.

https://twitter.com/perdhapleynba/status/1673002313651200001?s=46&t=whLvje1nnUIC2GVBVD1v8w

(06-25-2023, 12:35 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: I totally understand that the rumor is they want Tobias for Ayton. But if Morey's supposed asking price from CLE for Tobias was Mobley+Allen+FRP, then one can assume the asking price for a 3-team trade where the team that receives Ayton gets the luxury of paying Kyrie+Hardy+Green+FRP to Philly. 

(06-25-2023, 12:35 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: I totally understand that the rumor is they want Tobias for Ayton. But if Morey's supposed asking price from CLE for Tobias was Mobley+Allen+FRP, then one can assume the asking price for a 3-team trade where the team that receives Ayton gets the luxury of paying Kyrie+Hardy+Green+FRP to Philly. 

Of course that's silly. No shot it would ever happen. The realistic alternative of THJ+Maxi for Ayton I'm on board with, but there are a lot of signals PHX is sending out that they've surveyed the landscape of Ayton trades and don't like where his value is at and aren't going to sell low.

Gambo (PHX's Stein) says as such and goes so far as to say this PHI rumor is total BS: 

Haynes echoes the same point: 

Yet despite these guys clearly saying the Ayton market has closed, one has to wonder:

(06-25-2023, 12:23 PM)cow Wrote: Issue is if Maxi can stay healthy.  You could be right about Holmes, but we really don't know what he is or how he fits.  Powell has actually become more important to sign, I just hope he doesn't get more than the veteran minimum.  

I do think the Mavs are being more forward looking, but they'll want to compete while building up the roster.  There is no reason to sign Kyrie otherwise and we will give him a massive contract.  Nico also said that the FO isn't done.  A lot of the piecemeal bigs on the roster might not even be here.

(06-25-2023, 12:35 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: Yet despite these guys clearly saying the Ayton market has closed, one has to wonder:

(06-25-2023, 01:03 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: BTW, if you do the latter two versions that include McGee, there is room to also use the full MLE.  Rotation is probably:

Ayton/Lively/Min                     Ayton/Lively/Min
MLE/O-Max/Min                      Maxi/O-Max/Min
Green/Reggie/Min      OR         Green/MLE/Min
Kyrie/Hardy/Min                      Kyrie/Hardy/Min
Luka/Min                                Luka/Min

(06-25-2023, 01:06 PM)mvossman Wrote: The ideal answer is Powell on a min contract, but they might have to go BAE to keep him. 

(06-25-2023, 01:11 PM)Tyler Wrote: Love both options. And since Holmes isn't in your lineups, I wonder what level of wing Dallas could get for him in a trade.

(06-25-2023, 12:52 PM)Tyler Wrote: I believe you're thinking about the math wrong. The rumor that Morey wants 2 good players and a FRP for Harris certainly sounds strange, unless you think about players that have recently been valued at 2 good players and a FRP. Kyrie is EXACTLY the type of big name that Morey chases all the time, and my tinfoil-constructed Morey propaganda translator is indicating that he's sending a public message that most people are missing.