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RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - Davemo - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 02:09 PM)cow Wrote: -1.5 Years of Maxi is a late FRP value.
-JB is a late FRP value (getting him there helps them more easily resign him, shows him commitment and helps the team this year)
-Taking Kemba off their hands is a minor value (SRP)
-I don't have an opinion on Toppin but he was the 8th overall pick.
I'm not sure it's equitable but I'd want Toppin and the protections removed or reworked (is that possible? If it doesn't convey in '23, have it convert to a SRP?) on the '23 pick.
Random thoughts:
-Losing Maxi and JB means you are punting on this season.
-I hate the thought of picking players who will work great with KP. KP is not who we should be building around.
[quote pid="122588" dateline="1643396960"]
-I hate the thought of picking players who will work great with KP. KP is not who we should be building around.
This is an excellent point, though I do think Toppin would blend well with Luka also. Toppin should turn into a wonderful rim runner and a good 3 point shooter. He has great athleticism but is still a bit raw. His recent play has been better...he seems to be improving. In addition to Toppin being a projection, the biggest issue (as you mention) with this trade is the potential loss of this season as a contending threat. That is something I am leary of as well. I just do NOT want to lose JB for nothing in return. I am 70% convinced he is gone if we wait until the off-season. I see this trade as one to consider.......I like your idea of getting the protections removed.
[/quote]
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - ItsGoTime - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 02:09 PM)cow Wrote: -1.5 Years of Maxi is a late FRP value.I think JB is top 10 pick worthy.
-JB is a late FRP value (getting him there helps them more easily resign him, shows him commitment and helps the team this year)
-Taking Kemba off their hands is a minor value (SRP)
-I don't have an opinion on Toppin but he was the 8th overall pick.
I'm not sure it's equitable but I'd want Toppin and the protections removed or reworked (is that possible? If it doesn't convey in '23, have it convert to a SRP?) on the '23 pick.
Random thoughts:
-Losing Maxi and JB means you are punting on this season.
-I hate the thought of picking players who will work great with KP. KP is not who we should be building around.
I also don't know how to value Toppin who was the 8th pick, but is stuck behind a better player (and if NY truly is going after Zion, would be stuck behind him too!). How valuable could he be to NY in these cases?
I like these two alternatives between you and DS to getting the 23 back, anything to get us more picks sooner is better for our trade offerings. I think Dan's alternative of removing the protections and pick swapping 22 is favorable of course and think that is probably best case alternative in a straight JB for Toppin deal.
As far as the Random Thoughts?
-I can't go there with you. I don't think this team gets beyond the first round of the playoffs, and I think Luka gets us in the playoffs alone, so getting lesser players (maybe, and right now...maybe too) doesn't really make this a punting season in my mind. But making this trade opens up a good amount more possibilities for the future...like trading KP!
-From the sounds of it, Toppin looks to be a Christian Wood starter kit, possibly with higher upside. That fits next to more players than just KP. However, I get where you're coming from as far as mindset, and I'm very ready to move on from KP too! I'm close to making a sig bet with someone that if we don't trade him by the TDL this year that he'll be injured and unavailable for the playoffs this year...
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - cow - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 02:44 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Toppin is worth two late firsts (minimum)
Pick swap in 22 has value as you move from 20's to early teens.
Kind of agree on punting the season (who will be healthy first, Rose or Kemba?). But I think Toppin is much better than JB in a couple of years and he is cost controlled. Are we really going to win a championship this season? If not and if I can mitigate the flight risk, get a long term premium starter in Toppin, get the pick swap and free 25 and 27 as protection is removed from 23, I'm ok with punting.
I think you are asking for too much based on your valuation of Toppin. Maybe you disagree with my listed valuations though. You might have to drop the swap and settle for the protections removed from '23. That still gets you flexibility to trade future picks again, gets you another inexpensive long term piece and gets you an approximation of JB's offensive capabilities depending on the other player you return.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - Chicagojk - 01-28-2022
I liked Obi in the draft but haven't seen enough of him in the pros. I would think he would not meet my threshold for a Jalen trade....but I want to keep Jalen anyway.
A factoid to note, despite being in his second year he is only a year and a half younger than Jalen because he was an old rookie. So he may not have as much upside as some think. Tough to say being behind Randle though.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - cow - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 03:01 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: -I can't go there with you. I don't think this team gets beyond the first round of the playoffs, and I think Luka gets us in the playoffs alone, so getting lesser players (maybe, and right now...maybe too) doesn't really make this a punting season in my mind. But making this trade opens up a good amount more possibilities for the future...like trading KP!
Maybe I could have worded it differently and said it punts the upside of the season. As long as we don't face the Suns or GSW, we have a good shot of getting out of the first round. Trading away JB and Maxi almost guarantees a first round exit.
(01-28-2022, 03:05 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: A factoid to note, despite being in his second year he is only a year and a half younger than Jalen because he was an old rookie. So he may not have as much upside as some think. Tough to say being behind Randle though.
Great factoid.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - mvossman - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 03:01 PM)cow Wrote: I think you are asking for too much based on your valuation of Toppin. Maybe you disagree with my listed valuations though. You might have to drop the swap and settle for the protections removed from '23. That still gets you flexibility to trade future picks again, gets you another inexpensive long term piece and gets you an approximation of JB's offensive capabilities depending on the other player you return.
Making a trade for Toppin is just not the kind of move you see this organization make. I know folks have high hopes for Nico, but until I see this organization act any differently than it has the last several years (there was no hint of it last offseason) then I am going to assume status quo.
In that case, if they feel like they need to move Brunson (and it is starting to seem like writing might be on wall) then they are going to look for an established player in return. Something like Smart makes the most sense because he is a big name and a perfect player for Kidd. I could also see Kemba and the pick, because Kemba is a big name (and a recent target) and that pick gives them tradable assets.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - ItsGoTime - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 02:44 PM)cow Wrote: You can't look at the players in a vacuum (on court) though to compare values. JB's contract status hurts his value and Toppin's helps his value.I think in the sense of NY (and what seems to be Det) getting ready to fight for him in the offseason, you can (there is always inevitably some other team that will figure out a way to be in the mix as well...Bos through strong SnT offer?). I agree Toppin's contract helps his situation, but his on court play doesn't, once the pick is made and games are played, it becomes about realistic upside and the risk/reward of him realizing that potential. Him sitting behind Randle/Zion, he will for sure not reach a very high level.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - cow - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 03:13 PM)mvossman Wrote: Making a trade for Toppin is just not the kind of move you see this organization make. I know folks have high hopes for Nico, but until I see this organization act any differently than it has the last several years (there was no hint of it last offseason) then I am going to assume status quo.
In that case, if they feel like they need to move Brunson (and it is starting to seem like writing might be on wall) then they are going to look for an established player in return. Something like Smart makes the most sense because he is a big name and a perfect player for Kidd. I could also see Kemba and the pick, because Kemba is a big name (and a recent target) and that pick gives them tradable assets.
It's hard for me to say as I don't have a feel for Toppin at all.
Established players are complicated because of JB's tiny number.
I still like the idea of two trades. Trade 1: Kemba into the TPE. Trade 2: Brunson for Robinson + '23.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - ItsGoTime - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 03:06 PM)cow Wrote: As long as we don't face the Suns or GSW, we have a good shot of getting out of the first round.Man, I think we have to worry about more teams than just these two, or lots of injuries on the other teams to be this optimistic about this year's playoffs. Kidd is doing a good job making these players defensive minded, I'm just really low on the talent level of this team, and talent wins playoff games.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - omahen - 01-28-2022
(22) Adrian Wojnarowski on Twitter: "ESPN story on the Sacramento Kings dropping out of pursuit of a Ben Simmons trade with the Philadelphia 76ers: https://t.co/co9u3oazLw" / Twitter
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - cow - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 03:17 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: I think in the sense of NY (and what seems to be Det) getting ready to fight for him in the offseason, you can (there is always inevitably some other team that will figure out a way to be in the mix as well...Bos through strong SnT offer?). I agree Toppin's contract helps his situation, but his on court play doesn't, once the pick is made and games are played, it becomes about realistic upside and the risk/reward of him realizing that potential. Him sitting behind Randle/Zion, he will for sure not reach a very high level.
Keyword though is offseason. Jalen is free to do whatever he wants in the offseason so other teams aren't going to give you what he's worth on the court when they can just pay him that once the offseason is upon us. I don't think the Mavs will or should give him a starting salary at 20+ million and god bless the team that does. Bird rights don't help a ton as he isn't going to get a max offer. The benefit for trading for him now is that it is easier to resign him into your current cap limitations if he is on your roster. I'd love to get a massive return for Jalen but I just don't think that's realistic.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - omahen - 01-28-2022
(22) NBA Central on Twitter: "The New York Knicks are open to trading Kemba Walker, Evan Fournier and Alec Burks, per ESPN’s Brian Windhorst (h/t @RealGM ) https://t.co/wWmVeKXPak" / Twitter
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - cow - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 03:22 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Man, I think we have to worry about more teams than just these two, or lots of injuries on the other teams to be this optimistic about this year's playoffs. Kidd is doing a good job making these players defensive minded, I'm just really low on the talent level of this team, and talent wins playoff games.
I think we have a punchers chance at teams outside of those two. We could also be the one receiving the KO punch.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - cow - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 03:25 PM)omahen Wrote: (22) NBA Central on Twitter: "The New York Knicks are open to trading Kemba Walker, Evan Fournier and Alec Burks, per ESPN’s Brian Windhorst (h/t @RealGM ) https://t.co/wWmVeKXPak" / Twitter
Almost $48.5m in contracts for next year.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - ItsGoTime - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 03:25 PM)cow Wrote: Keyword though is offseason. Jalen is free to do whatever he wants in the offseason so other teams aren't going to give you what he's worth on the court when they can just pay him that once the offseason is upon us. I don't think the Mavs will or should give him a starting salary at 20+ million and god bless the team that does. Bird rights don't help a ton as he isn't going to get a max offer. The benefit for trading for him now is that it is easier to resign him into your current cap limitations if he is on your roster. I'd love to get a massive return for Jalen but I just don't think that's realistic.I think you're right, that there should be a hit to his valuation due to his contract status. I just think that hit is less than is is to a team that is already prepared to make a high bid on him. Bird rights do more than what you're saying. It gives more options to the team retaining them. Honestly, Dallas could very well be a suitor for JB this offseason if they don't trade him. I mean, sign him to a contract that these other teams want him for and then wait out his non-tradeable period to get the deal they wanted in the first place (or more). NY has then wasted 3/4 of a year to get him on their team and still had to pay the price.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - SleepingHero - 01-28-2022
I just don't see what you guys see in Toppin. He had a mediocre rookie year with a couple of highlight dunks. He has shown some flashes of switchability. But really if he was a ready to win now player he'd be playing in NYK as their desperate. Thibs doesn't shy away from playing guys as we know.
If the majority of Toppin love comes around how he fits next to KP primarily, then I think that's the wrong mindset. As cow said:
Quote:cow:
Random thoughts:
-Losing Maxi and JB means you are punting on this season.
-I hate the thought of picking players who will work great with KP. KP is not who we should be building around.
KP shouldn't be the primary focus in team building ever. We'd be giving up two of our most important pieces for a guard on their last legs, and a lotto pick we hope turns into something useful.
To me that's a huge risk. I don't get why we're pigeonholing ourselves into subpar trade ideas with NYK regarding Brunson. I can see viable deals with Boston (Smart) and Detroit (Grant). Let THEM deal with NYK in the summer.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - cow - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 05:26 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: KP shouldn't be the primary focus in team building ever. We'd be giving up two of our most important pieces for a guard on their last legs, and a lotto pick we hope turns into something useful.
To me that's a huge risk. I don't get why we're pigeonholing ourselves into subpar trade ideas with NYK regarding Brunson. I can see viable deals with Boston (Smart) and Detroit (Grant). Let THEM deal with NYK in the summer.
I'm not advocating just theory crafting. I have no dog in the Toppin hunt as I know next to nothing about him.
The problem with Grant is I'm assuming you are using THJ for pricing matching purposes and Brunson + THJ might need a sweetener to get that done.
I'm a huge Smart fan but his contract is going to get brutal starting next year. I guess it depends what you are sending out to price match. DFS + Smart + Green would be a nice rotation of defense.
I wonder if the Lakers would be interested in Bullock + Brunson for THT.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Kings drop out of Simmons pursuit - KillerLeft - 01-28-2022
@"SleepingHero" and @"cow", I do think Toppin fits great with KP, which is rare, imo. But, that's not the primary goal, because like you guys I don't think KP is a permanent fixture here. However, he is here now, so...
But honestly, I think Toppin with LUKA would be amazeballs. I have no idea if the kid will be as good as he can be, but I like the idea of trying to identify these guys when they're young and you can get them for a song. What has me jazzed about @"DanSchwartzgan"'s idea today is that even though Toppin is one of NY's most prized prospects, I can actually envision them letting go of the kid (and maybe more) to get Brunson.
We keep pining over these Simmons/Collins types, but the reality is that until they're willing to move KP (or until someone wants him) they're just not in position to make a deal like that. Those are win now moves, and to be honest, I don't think the Mavericks are one piece away from winning now, even if that piece is freaking Jokic. I think there's just too much maturing/learning left to do on this team. They're YOUNG now, and I like the idea of staying young and growing together.
For Toppin, I'm into taking the chance. There are others, like Bagley, who I'm completely out on, but Toppin feels like a great Luka-friendly fit to me. Just my opinion.
All of this is predicated on the Mavs knowing they can't keep Brunson, of course. There's no question Brunson is the better player right now, and he might always be!
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Kings drop out of Simmons pursuit - cow - 01-28-2022
I never pine for the big trades. The reality of those happening before our '23 pick is sorted out is next to none.
I like Brunson too, but even at $15m he would be a hard pill to swallow. $20m is bonkers. Assuming rumors are true.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Kings drop out of Simmons pursuit - KillerLeft - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 06:40 PM)cow Wrote: I never pine for the big trades. The reality of those happening before our '23 pick is sorted out is next to none.
I like Brunson too, but even at $15m he would be a hard pill to swallow. $20m is bonkers. Assuming rumors are true.
Agreed on their likelihood, but this one feels it could happen, at least to me.
$20 million is about what I thought he'd get. Not shocked by that at all, personally, though I certainly respect your opinion that you wouldn't want him here at that number. Someone will. Guys who can create offense like him are just way too rare and valuable for him not to get paid. I think he's objectively worth quite a bit more than the Hield, THJ, Fournier class, so he'll make more than they do, I'd assume.