+- MavsBoard (https://www.mavsboard.com)
+-- Forum: Boards (https://www.mavsboard.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=1)
+--- Forum: Dallas Mavericks and the NBA (https://www.mavsboard.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=2)
+--- Thread: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL over (/showthread.php?tid=1176)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - SleepingHero - 01-27-2022
(01-27-2022, 10:47 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Disagree on both counts, IMO:
White>Kleber
SA 1st>Dal 1st
Right what I was saying is that the framework equivalent for the Mavs would be Kleber and a first. As a starting point. Because Kleber for Collins isn't legal.
So I proposed giving ATL Kleber and shipping off THJ+Green+Brown to ORL. Mavs took on Gallo and put the Hawks 20 mil below the tax.
SO yes the Hawks don't get as good of a player in White, they get a good 4 that can hit threes and defend, and shed 30 mil of salary, which is in my mind equivalent to the White+pick for Collins framework rumor.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - Okstate819 - 01-27-2022
(01-27-2022, 10:47 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Disagree on both counts, IMO:
White>Kleber
SA 1st>Dal 1st
This is probably true although could argue ATL would value Maxi on his contract vs White on his when they are already paying big for Huerter and Bogdanovich.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - cjeter24 - 01-27-2022
(01-27-2022, 12:27 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: And yet, his teams consistently win a lot in the playoffs. And his defense plays a big role in that.
Have they? I don't recall Celtics being contenders at all with Smart on the team. I think theyve made the conference finals once. The east has been very week until the last year so its not like its been that hard.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - SleepingHero - 01-28-2022
(01-27-2022, 11:36 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: Have they? I don't recall Celtics being contenders at all with Smart on the team. I think theyve made the conference finals once. The east has been very week until the last year so its not like its been that hard.
They made it out of the first round 4 times in 7 years. They've made it to the conference finals 3 times in the last 6 years (2016, 2017, 2020). I'd say that's pretty successful. They were 1 Kyrie meltdown away from making it again in 2019.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - DanSchwartzgan - 01-28-2022
(01-27-2022, 10:00 PM)cow Wrote: I'd rather have Jalen than Fox.
Now for some wild ass speculation on my part since the NBA loves tampering, New York tampering with Jalen would be extremely easy because of their relationship with his dad. The question becomes how hard is it for the Knicks to clear the ~$15m (if the $20m+ rumor is true) off their cap next year to just outright sign Jalen? And would that cap clearing exercise be less expensive than trading for him at the TDL?
FWIW, Jalen is rated more highly than Fox in EPM and LEBRON. Brunson is the 21st ranked PG in both measures...basically the leader of the bottom third of starting PG's. If you screen for O-EPM and O-LEBRON, it is 18th and 14th.
I think you make a great point about the cost to clear space in the summer versus the cost to acquire Brunson now. I think we established that NY has a path to that kind of room by not picking up Gibson's NG and by trading Rose, their 2022 pick and one small contract. It could be getting rid of Robinson's cap hold or it could be any of the lower salary guys...even former 36th pick McBride does it. If I'm NY, that is my offer...Rose, Pick, McBride. Dallas has to send back another player...any of Bullock, Maxi or Powell. If I have to give that up for cap room anyway, why wouldn't I offer that. Dallas can tinker around the edges...Walker instead of Rose or 23 instead of 22 and Dallas gets to pick the outgoing. but that's it if I'm NY.
The problem is Rose and Walker can't stay healthy. So, Dallas is less competitive in the current year. That would be a risk worth taking if the pick led to something great and one of the lower salary guys had substantial upside. But, unless we are talking Toppin, I'm not getting enough upside out of Quickley, McBride, Grimes, Reddish or Robinson. I'd give up Maxi with JB if I was getting back Toppin, a PG and a pick. I'd want to also swap Burke for McBride since the PG I'm getting...either Rose or Walker...isn't currently healthy. That doesn't help us in the current season, but Toppin next to KP is a really good long term fit plus you can get to work with your picks.
NY says NO? Ok, lets negotiate through the media for a few weeks.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - DanSchwartzgan - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 06:51 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: I'd give up Maxi with JB if I was getting back Toppin, a PG and a pick. That doesn't help us in the current season, but Toppin next to KP is a really good long term fit plus you can get to work with your picks.
Since Toppin probably isn't realistic, I think there might be something involving Boston that I'd like. Let's say NY will do Robinson/Rose (or Walker)/Pick for Powell/Brunson (recall that they have to give up Rose, the 2022 pick and a small contract to create cap room for JB this summer). Can you then turn Bullock and a pick(s) into Smart? There are a dozen ways to fill around the edges. Result would be:
Robinson/KP/DFS/Smart/Luka (now that is a defense)
Maxi/Green/and one of Walker/Rose (plus THJ when he eventually returns)
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - Davemo - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 09:26 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Since Toppin probably isn't realistic, I think there might be something involving Boston that I'd like. Let's say NY will do Robinson/Rose (or Walker)/Pick for Powell/Brunson (recall that they have to give up Rose, the 2022 pick and a small contract to create cap room for JB this summer). Can you then turn Bullock and a pick(s) into Smart? There are a dozen ways to fill around the edges. Result would be:
Robinson/KP/DFS/Smart/Luka (now that is a defense)
Maxi/Green/and one of Walker/Rose (plus THJ when he eventually returns)
I really like the Toppin idea you proposed.....I agree he would be a great fit next to KP. Is there any way to sweeten the pot to make this happen? It seems Toppin is stuck behind Randle so the Knicks should at least listen to offers for him. Maybe Green (too much?) or a 2nd rounder in some form or fashion? Curious as to your thoughts.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - mvossman - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 09:26 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Since Toppin probably isn't realistic, I think there might be something involving Boston that I'd like. Let's say NY will do Robinson/Rose (or Walker)/Pick for Powell/Brunson (recall that they have to give up Rose, the 2022 pick and a small contract to create cap room for JB this summer). Can you then turn Bullock and a pick(s) into Smart? There are a dozen ways to fill around the edges. Result would be:
Robinson/KP/DFS/Smart/Luka (now that is a defense)
Maxi/Green/and one of Walker/Rose (plus THJ when he eventually returns)
I really struggle with the Robinson/KP combo in your starting lineup. I'm not really a fan of the KP/Powell combo, but I think you can get away with it due to Powell's mobility. We see centers get hunted and teams going smaller in the playoffs more and more. I'm not sure the solution for that is to start two centers.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - aguiar95 - 01-28-2022
Bullock for Ingles straight up (we could take some filler and waive Moses to sweeten the pot). UTA needs perimeter defense (and they clear some tax money) and DAL needs offense (and we clear a little bit of money for JB/DFS extensions).
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - Davemo - 01-28-2022
(01-27-2022, 10:00 PM)cow Wrote: I'd rather have Jalen than Fox. Fox has the "advantage" of being under contract for four seasons after this one. Haliburton is also under contract next season, then a club option the following and a RFA after that. You have a lot more control by trading for the players you listed.
The value of trading for Jalen now, beyond a half season of play, is maybe that instills confidence in him towards your organization and that might help that organization fit them in their cap structure.
Now for some wild ass speculation on my part since the NBA loves tampering, New York tampering with Jalen would be extremely easy because of their relationship with his dad. The question becomes how hard is it for the Knicks to clear the ~$15m (if the $20m+ rumor is true) off their cap next year to just outright sign Jalen? And would that cap clearing exercise be less expensive than trading for him at the TDL?
That's why my original idea was Robinson for Jalen, Bullock for Kemba, and our 23rd pick back. That's assuming the Knicks don't plan to retain Robinson and he very well might be a half season rental for the Mavs. This was back when Kemba was benched so it would have actually been doing the Knicks a solid. I have no idea where that relationship is now. I'm starting to think even that trade idea is far fetched.
Given the contract of Fox, I dont necessarily disagree. I do think, however, Fox has so much more upside and potential than Jalen. I also think he might be a completely different player under Kidd and with Luka. If Jalen does not want to come back and we could find a way to do Jalen for Fox by giving away Jalen and salary dumps....I would do it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, the salaries and fact that Jalen would have to agree to sign with SAC would probably make this impossible.
I also thought I saw SAC wanted to keep both Fox and Halliburton to build around? Of course, lies run amuck at this time of year.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - SleepingHero - 01-28-2022
Quote:
- Yahoo Sports’ Chris Haynes reported on his Posted Up podcast (28:40 mark): “League sources have told me the Lakers have reached out to the Kings about a Talen Horton-Tucker package for Hield. Still trying to make that happen. Obviously the Kings are like, ‘No. We feel like there’s more lucrative deals out there.’ The Kings are going to be active. They’ve got a whole bunch of people calling them
Can you imagine the Kings helping the Lakers out for THT...?
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - Jmaciscool - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 06:51 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: ...that NY has a path to that kind of room by not picking up Gibson's NG and by trading Rose...
I dunno...I've heard urban legends say that if you whisper "Thibodeau" three times in a mirror then Taj Gibson and Derrick Rose suddenly appear behind you, so I'm not sure it's easy for NY to get rid of those two with Thibs as the coach.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - KillerLeft - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 09:26 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Since Toppin probably isn't realistic
Why not?
They have Randle, and they need a PG.
I think that might be the EXACT right value for Brunson, and he's the type we're always trying to find that could potentially fit with Luka/KP (Randle sure isn't).
Honestly, I can see it.
GREAT WORK @"DanSchwartzgan", btw! You're killing it today!
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - DanSchwartzgan - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 09:44 AM)Davemo Wrote: I really like the Toppin idea you proposed.....I agree he would be a great fit next to KP. Is there any way to sweeten the pot to make this happen? It seems Toppin is stuck behind Randle so the Knicks should at least listen to offers for him. Maybe Green (too much?) or a 2nd rounder in some form or fashion? Curious as to your thoughts.
Sorry I missed this.
Yeah, I’m a huge fan of Toppin here. The trick is NY just sold their fan base on him as a high lottery pick and now they are dealing him for a guy they can sign this summer with a little bit of player movement? So, at its most simple level (JB for Toppin) it is a tough sell in NY.
For Dallas, you are sending out an important starter from the 5th best team in the west and taking back another big who is probably not ready to be a big contributor to a playoff run. So, not a win-now move. If you believe Toppin for JB is a long term winner, you start adding pieces to make this work for 2022. Maxi (who can play next to Robinson or Randle)? Send us a PG (either Walker or Rose)? OK. Who owes something more if the deal is JB/Maxi for Toppin/Rose (or Walker)?
It probably depends on where you value Toppin versus Brunson as to who has to send what. If this is already relatively fair, you probably aren’t getting a pick from NY and they aren’t getting Green from us. If Dallas doesn’t get the NY pick, maybe we lift the protection on 23 and get the right to pick-swap with NY in 22 (presumably giving us a better pick at the draft and the ability to combine it with our 25 and 27 once the 22 pick has been made). That pushes the bigger move to the summer, but you now have a really good long term piece in Toppin and the ability to include Rose with Powell and/or Hardaway and picks for a bigger fish this summer.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - cow - 01-28-2022
-1.5 Years of Maxi is a late FRP value.
-JB is a late FRP value (getting him there helps them more easily resign him, shows him commitment and helps the team this year)
-Taking Kemba off their hands is a minor value (SRP)
-I don't have an opinion on Toppin but he was the 8th overall pick.
I'm not sure it's equitable but I'd want Toppin and the protections removed or reworked (is that possible? If it doesn't convey in '23, have it convert to a SRP?) on the '23 pick.
Random thoughts:
-Losing Maxi and JB means you are punting on this season.
-I hate the thought of picking players who will work great with KP. KP is not who we should be building around.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - ItsGoTime - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 01:50 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: It probably depends on where you value Toppin versus Brunson as to who has to send what. If this is already relatively fair, you probably aren’t getting a pick from NY and they aren’t getting Green from us. If Dallas doesn’t get the NY pick, maybe we lift the protection on 23 and get the right to pick-swap with NY in 22 (presumably giving us a better pick at the draft and the ability to combine it with our 24 and 26 once the 22 pick has been made). That pushes the bigger move to the summer, but you now have a really good long term piece in Toppin and the ability to include Rose with Powell and/or Hardaway and picks for a bigger fish this summer.Bolded: Wouldn't that still be 25 and 27 still because at that point you don't own your 23 at all in the future?
Pretty good alternative to getting the 23 back, but for me, the only trade with NYK that makes sense starts with us getting the 23 back. Jalen has more value than just one 1st, just not sure that value is Toppin although I wouldn't mind it being as I read others thoughts on him.
(01-28-2022, 01:50 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Who owes something more if the deal is JB/Maxi for Toppin/Rose (or Walker)?Man, I think this requires AT LEAST our 23 pick back, and probably then some really. JB has to have more value than Toppin (Right? I mean, right?) and MK for sure has more value than Walker or Rose. If the spread between JB and Toppin isn't fully a first but close, and then the spread between MK and Rose/Walker IMO is very close to a first as well (I think Walker and Rose are negative values on their contracts), that's got to mean we get our 1st back at the very least. That's my math on it anyway.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - cow - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 02:39 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Man, I think this requires AT LEAST our 23 pick back, and probably then some really. JB has to have more value than Toppin (Right? I mean, right?) and MK for sure has more value than Walker or Rose. If the spread between JB and Toppin isn't fully a first but close, and then the spread between MK and Rose/Walker IMO is very close to a first as well (I think Walker and Rose are negative values on their contracts), that's got to mean we get our 1st back at the very least. That's my math on it anyway.
You can't look at the players in a vacuum (on court) though to compare values. JB's contract status hurts his value and Toppin's helps his value.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - DanSchwartzgan - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 02:09 PM)cow Wrote: -1.5 Years of Maxi is a late FRP value.
-JB is a late FRP value (getting him there helps them more easily resign him, shows him commitment and helps the team this year)
-Taking Kemba off their hands is a minor value (SRP)
-I don't have an opinion on Toppin but he was the 8th overall pick.
I'm not sure it's equitable but I'd want Toppin and the protections removed or reworked (is that possible? If it doesn't convey in '23, have it convert to a SRP?) on the '23 pick.
Random thoughts:
-Losing Maxi and JB means you are punting on this season.
-I hate the thought of picking players who will work great with KP. KP is not who we should be building around.
Toppin is worth two late firsts (minimum)
Pick swap in 22 has value as you move from 20's to early teens.
Kind of agree on punting the season (who will be healthy first, Rose or Kemba?). But I think Toppin is much better than JB in a couple of years and he is cost controlled. Are we really going to win a championship this season? If not and if I can mitigate the flight risk, get a long term premium starter in Toppin, get the pick swap and free 25 and 27 as protection is removed from 23, I'm ok with punting.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - DanSchwartzgan - 01-28-2022
(01-28-2022, 01:47 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Why not?
They have Randle, and they need a PG.
I think that might be the EXACT right value for Brunson, and he's the type we're always trying to find that could potentially fit with Luka/KP (Randle sure isn't).
Honestly, I can see it.
GREAT WORK @"DanSchwartzgan", btw! You're killing it today!
Thanks. Taking Friday's off this year.
RE: NBA TRADE TALK: TDL: Feb 10, 2pm |Stein DAL see JB/DFS near untouchable, want creator - KillerLeft - 01-28-2022
If you believe Toppin will become as good as he CAN become, then putting him with Luka would be a coup this season. Pick and roll between those two would be LETHAL.
I'd potentially "punt on the season" if there's a prize like that, especially if they think they're losing Brunson anyway. That's the variable we need, really.