MavsBoard
Trade & FA 2023-24: Lavine Market Barely There| Nets Will Keep Bridges - Printable Version

+- MavsBoard (https://www.mavsboard.com)
+-- Forum: Boards (https://www.mavsboard.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=1)
+--- Forum: Dallas Mavericks and the NBA (https://www.mavsboard.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=2)
+--- Thread: Trade & FA 2023-24: Lavine Market Barely There| Nets Will Keep Bridges (/showthread.php?tid=2444)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - SleepingHero - 05-16-2024

(05-16-2024, 04:22 PM)F Gump Wrote: I don't think that trade would be possible (or practical) because of the new trade rules pertaining to the apron at Apron 1. Assuming THJ gets traded, the return salary needs to be less, not more, and ideally it would be several million less.

Fair point. Wasn't thinking about contracts more so of getting more versatile 6'8 guys on the roster.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - Mavs2021 - 05-16-2024

(05-16-2024, 04:38 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: On the other hand, it sure seems like everyone has hated him on every team he has played for. Don’t you think part of what is working here is chemistry?

His teammates on the undefeated world champs seemed to like him just fine. Don´t think Lakers hated him either. There is no doubt he´s not lacking in self confidence and is opinionated. Same could be said about Kyrie Irving before coming here. I´m just looking at matching salary that create a little extra space and can be dealt for Timmah straight up. Not a lot of options out there. Schroeder is probably one of the better available options. Unless of course they want to aim for a big upgrade with THJ+Powell+1st round pick(s) at the core of the package. That could mean we lose DJJ.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - mvossman - 05-16-2024

(05-16-2024, 04:48 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: His teammates on the undefeated world champs seemed to like him just fine. Don´t think Lakers hated him either. There is no doubt he´s not lacking in self confidence and is opinionated. Same could be said about Kyrie Irving before coming here. I´m just looking at matching salary that create a little extra space and can be dealt for Timmah straight up. Not a lot of options out there. Schroeder is probably one of the better available options. Unless of course they want to aim for a big upgrade with THJ+Powell+1st round pick(s) at the core of the package. That could mean we lose DJJ.

Don't really think Kyrie is a good comp for potential chemistry issues.  Grant Williams is probably a better one.  No interest in Schroeder.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - F Gump - 05-16-2024

I don't want to change any of the Mavs starters or key reserves. I think the players to do what's needed are already here, with very minor exceptions.
- I think they have a good shot at finding a way to keep DJJ. He wants to be here. I expect they want the same.
- I think Gafford is very important, and that he makes Lively better (and vice versa). Both can play all out, not worry about fouls, challenge shots, be aggressive. If one is having an off game, the other can get more minutes. Just like Brendan Haywood made Tyson Chandler better. And I don't have any issue with Gafford's salary as long as it's in the MLE area.
- I am in the minority on Green - I see his issues and don't look at him through rose colored glasses imagining he's someone else - but I would keep him. The price is modest, and at times he is a plus.
- On both Green and Exum, it's frustrating to see them unable to score in the playoffs, but I think they both got off track from injuries, and not sure either is fully healthy. Neither has a problem salary. I think they can be much better.

I do want to move THJ. I'm glad he is making plays at times in playoffs. I hope it raises his desirability to other teams. They need a more reliable bench scorer at times. Trade possibilities will be greatly impacted and limited by hard cap rules, and it seems fairly concrete that any THJ trade will have to be done with LESS salary coming back in return.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - The Jom - 05-16-2024

(05-16-2024, 04:32 PM)F Gump Wrote: Assuming no other moves, the most you can pay DJJ after a trade of THJ with "matching" salary in return will be in the neighborhood of 8M. If you simply give THJ away into someone's cap room, that allows full MLE, but that's also harder and more expensive.

Just paying the taxpayer MLE to DJJ, then filling up the roster, has the Mavs about 3M over Apron 1.

It’s invaluable having you run this math here. Do you think the stretch waive is under consideration?


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - BigDirk41 - 05-16-2024

I definitely don't want to add a new starter to this team unless that's just Lively replacing Gafford. Any additions need to be good defenders because that seems to be the identity of the team now. A top notch 6th man that can hold his own defensively would go a long ways. We need to retain DJJ and he needs to be the starting 4. Adding a star that can't defend will make this team worse imo. I'm highly confident PJ will be a great 3rd option next year.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - F Gump - 05-16-2024

(05-16-2024, 05:17 PM)The Jom Wrote: It’s invaluable having you run this math here. Do you think the stretch waive is under consideration?

Of whom?

I don't see anyone they'd want to pay to go away, rather than try to get value somehow from the salary. SW is way overrated imo as a planning option.


JamesConway912 - JamesConway912 - 05-16-2024

A third guard who can carry some of the burden behind Kyrie/Luka and helps in the halfcourt offense once things get stagnant is the biggest need for now Imo. Doesn’t have to be a worldbeater, someone like DJ Augustin in his Orlando days would be plenty enough. Preferably someone cheap, maybe Schröder although we have a long track record of not chasing him.

They have been linked to Sexton in the past, he’s probably not gettable though. I doubt they’d add someone expensive but he’d be a big help off the bench. Rozier would be, too.

They’ll have to replace Kleber sooner than later, I am also hopeful that Lively might be able to add some range to his game but that’s mostly wishful thinking as of now. 

Omax is a big question mark, he gets a lot of hype on this board but realistically he’s another season like this away from being out of the Nba. He was an upperclassman afterall and has not been remotely close to being an option for the rotation so far. He needs to show progress quickly. 

Kidd has not been gunshy when it comes to finding minutes for development projects yet Omax has actually played less than Green did in his rookie season under Carlisle who had zero interest in developing him.


RE: JamesConway912 - Smitty - 05-16-2024

(05-16-2024, 07:16 PM)JamesConway912 Wrote: A third guard who can carry some of the burden behind Kyrie/Luka and helps in the halfcourt offense once things get stagnant is the biggest need for now Imo.

PJ Washington is averaging 19.4 PPG this series.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - The Jom - 05-16-2024

(05-16-2024, 05:31 PM)F Gump Wrote: Of whom?

I don't see anyone they'd want to pay to go away, rather than try to get value somehow from the salary. SW is way overrated imo as a planning option.

Was replying to your post that said, “ If you simply give THJ away into someone's cap room, that allows full MLE . . . .”

So THJ is the answer to your question. You already answered mine. I suspect you are right that they will pay someone an asset to take Timmy before absorbing that stretch hit for the next 3 years. But I assume the fact that they could choose to stretch creates a ceiling on how much they should/would give up for a salary dump.


JamesConway912 - JamesConway912 - 05-16-2024

(05-16-2024, 07:54 PM)Smitty Wrote: PJ Washington is averaging 19.4 PPG this series.

That’s great production for a forward. Awesome.


RE: JamesConway912 - Scott41theMavs - 05-16-2024

(05-16-2024, 07:54 PM)Smitty Wrote: PJ Washington is averaging 19.4 PPG this series.

What's he got to do with guards?


RE: JamesConway912 - Scott41theMavs - 05-16-2024

(05-16-2024, 07:16 PM)JamesConway912 Wrote: A third guard who can carry some of the burden behind Kyrie/Luka and helps in the halfcourt offense once things get stagnant is the biggest need for now Imo. Doesn’t have to be a worldbeater, someone like DJ Augustin in his Orlando days would be plenty enough. Preferably someone cheap, maybe Schröder although we have a long track record of not chasing him.

They have been linked to Sexton in the past, he’s probably not gettable though. I doubt they’d add someone expensive but he’d be a big help off the bench. Rozier would be, too.

They’ll have to replace Kleber sooner than later, I am also hopeful that Lively might be able to add some range to his game but that’s mostly wishful thinking as of now. 

Omax is a big question mark, he gets a lot of hype on this board but realistically he’s another season like this away from being out of the Nba. He was an upperclassman afterall and has not been remotely close to being an option for the rotation so far. He needs to show progress quickly. 

Kidd has not been gunshy when it comes to finding minutes for development projects yet Omax has actually played less than Green did in his rookie season under Carlisle who had zero interest in developing him.

I don't understand why fans who seem otherwise to know something about basketball dismiss OMax so ruthlessly. He obviously had a lot to learn about NBA-level defensive rotations. Moreover, we were stacked at the four-three. (that's to understand why he didn't play this year) He has the physical tools in a niche which is quite highly valued in this league. He became very reliable at outside shooting in the GL and applied that to the league when finally given the chance. 

He'll get his shot next year. "Another year like this year" - not sure why that possibility would be raised when the only conceivable possibility of it happening requires that he fall down a tall flight of steps this month.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - RGP1981 - 05-16-2024

(05-16-2024, 03:24 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: Here's a question to consider moving forward - how important is the Landlord? I think Lively is clearly the superior player right now, has growth headroom that absolutely dwarfs Gafford, and has the additional advantage of being on a rookie contract. There was certainly a considerable value to taking the pressure off Lively minutes and foul-wise this year. I think that diminishes as time goes on. I think it would be wonderful still to have Gafford here next year, but far less crucial than this year. I would imagine that Gafford next year is a 20 mpg player in the regular season, and about 15 mpg in the playoffs. Is that enough for him to deserve his salary next year? I'm sure they'd love to have that role filled at a lower salary next year and far moreso the year after. How much lower can the Mavs afford to go talent-wise for the sake of that savings?

Or is there someone who would be just as effective in the role at a fraction of the price?

Jericho Sims. He needs coaching up but the physical tools are there. He is an athletic freak with abnormal lateral quickness for a 6'10-6'11" guy. Anyway, he's a better perimeter defender and rebounder than Gafford or Lively, and is someone who can give the Mavs 15-20 MPG.

That being said, I think Gafford is important and would prefer to keep him. I also think it would be real nice to have 3 Centers of this type... since they can get in foul trouble real quick if the referees decide to call all the ticky-tacky stuff... and nobody knows if Kleber can stay healthy. Gafford, Lively and Sims would be a strong rotation to have, and cheap too.

Possessions from different games


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - F Gump - 05-16-2024

(05-16-2024, 08:00 PM)The Jom Wrote: Was replying to your post that said, “ If you simply give THJ away into someone's cap room, that allows full MLE . . . .”

So THJ is the answer to your question. You already answered mine. I suspect you are right that they will pay someone an asset to take Timmy before absorbing that stretch hit for the next 3 years. But I assume the fact that they could choose to stretch creates a ceiling on how much they should/would give up for a salary dump.

Got it. While I mentioned a deal of sending THJ into someone's cap room, that was only an answer on how to create full MLE cap room.

FYI the SW path on THJ, like many other options, does not offer them the ability to spend the full big MLE (it probably gets them to around $10M starting salary, more or less).

I do think "what is DJJ thinking" is the primary question, which will define or limit their ideas, and one we have no answer to. Will DJJ will take the TxP MLE and work to make Dallas his home team? He's a great fit. Or will the demand for him make his salary price literally impossible, no matter what the Mavs do? While not as likely, that is still a possibility. Gotta know that, before deciding what makes sense on THJ.

ETA - I do think DJJ is such a good fit that it would make no sense to look for an alternative if you don't have to. How long have we longed for a superior wing defender? His agility, smarts, and length/leaping ability makes him pretty much everything we could want in that area, and he also has ways to be a factor on the offensive end. From time to time I see ideas of looking for better offense at his position, but I would much prefer to find that added offense from DJJ getting a bit better, rather than from a replacement whose defense will be worse (and likely MUCH MUCH worse). And if we pursue a player who is strong defensively AND on offense, we end up paying $40M rather than $10M, plus the cost to get him here is super expensive (and probably impossible).


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - SleepingHero - 05-16-2024

(05-16-2024, 05:20 PM)BigDirk41 Wrote: I definitely don't want to add a new starter to this team unless that's just Lively replacing Gafford. Any additions need to be good defenders because that seems to be the identity of the team now. A top notch 6th man that can hold his own defensively would go a long ways. We need to retain DJJ and he needs to be the starting 4. Adding a star that can't defend will make this team worse imo. I'm highly confident PJ will be a great 3rd option next year.

I'm largely with the "Don't mess with the starting 5" crowd this summer. It works with Luka/Kyrie/DJJ/PJ/Gafford(Lively) lineup. But there is a world where DJJ regresses and looks like the guy he has always been at every other stop. If an obvious upgrade comes along the Mavs should take it.  

Who qualifies as an obvious upgrade is up for debate. I played with the Lebron+Bronny idea in the draft thread. Lebron as a player just makes a lot of sense and lets you dial back Luka during the regular season. Also allows Lebron to dial it back too. My only concerns are with his defense (and how bad he is now) plus the media circus that follows him. 

The one guy I've been pining over for forever is Lauri. Dude would do wonders here. Has the size of a 4/5, but the mobility of a 2/3. Can't create shots for himself off the dribble reliably but is arguably the most lethal spot up shooter in the league. 

Him with PJ and Lively is a formidable front court. Mavs lineup is:

Luka (6'8)
Kyrie (6'3)
PJ (6'7)
Lauri (7'0)
Lively (7'1) 

Just such a big lineup and filled with shooting. Luka being able to serve up Lauri open 3 after open 3 gets me going. Can never double anyone in this lineup cause you have 3 (maybe even 4 if we count PJ) 3-level scorers. Give up a bit on D but add a whole new dimension to the offense. 

No way the Mavs has what it takes though for a Lauri deal. I'd give up Green+OMax+Hardy+THJ+Maxi. Basically anyone not named Luka/Kyrie/PJ/Lively for Lauri. As well as 2025+2031 unprotected. I'm really that big of a fan of Lauri.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - BigDirk41 - 05-16-2024

I'm not interested in giving up an inch defensively. Defense is 100% why we are winning in the playoffs. I don't want someone who is a upgrade offensively (even if significant) at the cost of defense. Defense is the new Mavs identity. I love Lauri as a player, but he doesn't fit on this current Mavs team. We don't need another guy that needs the ball a lot. We have the perfect mix of big time scores with role players that can do more, but won't complain if they aren't getting touches. Everyone on the team can play defense now and that includes Luka (when he wants to). I also think Gafford is here to stay. I suspect Lively will be the starter next year, but Gafford isn't someone we can just replace with some cheap option. He's a very high energy and high character guy. He's a great teammate and he protects the rim.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - The Jom - 05-16-2024

Mavs seem to circle back on guys they missed sometimes. Is Matisse Thybulle still on anybody’s wish list? That would kind of be doubling down on the DJJ investment.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - RGP1981 - 05-16-2024

(05-16-2024, 10:20 PM)BigDirk41 Wrote: I'm not interested in giving up an inch defensively. Defense is 100% why we are winning in the playoffs. I don't want someone who is a upgrade offensively (even if significant) at the cost of defense. Defense is the new Mavs identity. I love Lauri as a player, but he doesn't fit on this current Mavs team. We don't need another guy that needs the ball a lot. We have the perfect mix of big time scores with role players that can do more, but won't complain if they aren't getting touches. Everyone on the team can play defense now and that includes Luka (when he wants to). I also think Gafford is here to stay. I suspect Lively will be the starter next year, but Gafford isn't someone we can just replace with some cheap option. He's a very high energy and high character guy. He's a great teammate and he protects the rim.

Herb Jones, Jaden McDaniels... those are the guys who would be defensive upgrades on DJJ, but not by much.

I would go for them if they were available though, because of their younger age. Herb seems more get-able than Jaden.

And I would like Aaron Wiggins as the backup SG. He plays good enough defense at 6'6", and seems to have a better offensive impact on the game than THJ or Green. Most importantly, he doesn't seem a bed-wetter, like THJ or Green. If I were to compare him individually to those two:

Shooting: THJ > Wiggins > Green.
Driving to the Rim: Wiggins > Green > THJ.
Cutting: Wiggins > Green > THJ.
Defense: Green >= Wiggins > THJ.
Athleticism: Green > Wiggins > THJ.
BBIQ: Wiggins > THJ > Green.
Ability to step up: Wiggins > THJ > Green.
Salary: Wiggins > Green > THJ.


RE: Trade & FA 2023-24: Stein-Ingram Trade Inevitable| LAL Want Lebron Back On Any Terms - The Jom - 05-16-2024

You keep saying Wiggins. But isn’t this series showing he isn’t playable? His minutes have diminished every game, while his coach searches for a guy to fill in for Giddey but isn’t choosing him. He’s hit 1 of his last 9 from the 3-point line. And he’s listed at 6-5, not 6-6. Don’t see what there is to love there. Josh and Tim both outplaying him from my vantage point.